Comments on post #1096425

@Ipswich67 on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-14T09:29:14-05:00

I'll save the philosophy for the class then shall I?

@Alignn on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-14T09:17:16-05:00

Yeah, happens all the time.
Whenever I lose an argument it's just because my opponent was better at words. . .

@omegaworld on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T23:34:53-05:00

NWSiaCB said:
If it's not part of the pool, this clearly doesn't pass on its own.

It clearly doesn't have high enough quality art to stand on its own merit.

In fact, it doesn't even convey the intended meaning (that Cirno is Italian) without having an additional comment tacked on to explicitly tell you what the message was. The image doesn't convey anything at all but Cirno saying "Mama Mia!"

Even if this was part of the "storyline", how, exactly is it part of the story? The ones before this might have some claim to establishing the character that is about to be used, but what is established here? Literally only that this artist believes that Cirno is Italian for his personal version of Gensokyo, and that was accomplished not even through the image, but through text, meaning the image serves no function at all.

Further, if we're going to go with the notion that doing something "new" with a character is an ideal worth striving for, and that ignorance of canon or fanon is somehow a virtue, then why not simply make your own original characters if making an original story is what you wanted to do in the first place?

Finally, and to the other posters in this thread, saying "take it easy" is essentially the "safe" way to troll, since it means the actual content of the criticism is completely meaningless, the criticism is wrong simply because it is a criticism. It takes absolutely nothing to verify, and is also an attempt to weasel your way into making yourself seem like the reasonable person for not even considering the validity of criticism. People who do that really need to chill out and stop screaming at everyone to chill out.

the advice we all must take to heart.

@NWSiaCB on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T20:59:36-05:00

ThymeParadox said:
No, I know this image is not some masterpiece or even all that good a piece of art or characterization, nor am I going to waste my time filing an appeal if this doesn't get approved, I've just been uploading them in the order in which DrSunshine originally posted them. I see now that this was a mistake to upload, as it really doesn't meet Danbooru's standards of quality, or is it close to being the best art DrSunshine has drawn, and that stereotypes really don't make for good characterization.

For everyone out there, would you rather the pool include the one-shot art pieces, or just the ongoing storyline?

If it's not part of the pool, this clearly doesn't pass on its own.

It clearly doesn't have high enough quality art to stand on its own merit.

In fact, it doesn't even convey the intended meaning (that Cirno is Italian) without having an additional comment tacked on to explicitly tell you what the message was. The image doesn't convey anything at all but Cirno saying "Mama Mia!"

Even if this was part of the "storyline", how, exactly is it part of the story? The ones before this might have some claim to establishing the character that is about to be used, but what is established here? Literally only that this artist believes that Cirno is Italian for his personal version of Gensokyo, and that was accomplished not even through the image, but through text, meaning the image serves no function at all.

Further, if we're going to go with the notion that doing something "new" with a character is an ideal worth striving for, and that ignorance of canon or fanon is somehow a virtue, then why not simply make your own original characters if making an original story is what you wanted to do in the first place?

Finally, and to the other posters in this thread, saying "take it easy" is essentially the "safe" way to troll, since it means the actual content of the criticism is completely meaningless, the criticism is wrong simply because it is a criticism. It takes absolutely nothing to verify, and is also an attempt to weasel your way into making yourself seem like the reasonable person for not even considering the validity of criticism. People who do that really need to chill out and stop screaming at everyone to chill out.

@lordoflord on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T20:35:13-05:00

And another one flags a post that's still pending! Whoever you are, bravo! Here's your honorary Neutral on your record!

@ThymeParadox on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T20:26:46-05:00

NWSiaCB said:
Non-apology apology - "apologize" by shifting the blame onto the person who was offended while trying to act befuddled why someone would claim you are a <insert racist/sexist/homophobe/whatever here> simply because you continuously make statements of a <insert racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever here> nature.

Well crap, I was explicitly trying to avoid writing that, but I guess I'm not nearly as good with words as I think I am.

No, I know this image is not some masterpiece or even all that good a piece of art or characterization, nor am I going to waste my time filing an appeal if this doesn't get approved, I've just been uploading them in the order in which DrSunshine originally posted them. I see now that this was a mistake to upload, as it really doesn't meet Danbooru's standards of quality, or is it close to being the best art DrSunshine has drawn, and that stereotypes really don't make for good characterization.

For everyone out there, would you rather the pool include the one-shot art pieces, or just the ongoing storyline?

@Black_Gold_Saw on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T19:59:38-05:00

But Cirno isn't dumb.

@MisterSolitaire on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T19:54:58-05:00

~Take it easy!

@NWSiaCB on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T18:59:47-05:00

ThymeParadox said:
I'm sorry that DrSunshine is not the esteemed Touhou scholar that you feel is necessary to craft an epic Touhou story, because artists have totally always keep the exact same characterization for the characters of touhou right? Oh wait, no they haven't, like Reimu being a jerk or caring to both humans and youkai, or Sakuya being a cold loyal servant, or making Remilia cry all the time.

Artists are allowed to change things up if they want, and the Touhou fandom is so large you can find crazy different interpretations of each character, because ZUN doesn't really flesh out their personality all that much.

But you being the esteemed Touhou scholar that you are, I'm sure you recall a certain phrase, I do recall it was "Take it easy"? When you take Touhou fandom seriously, we all lose, so if you don't like DrSunshine's characterization of the Touhous, you have plenty of other doujins that will offer the Touhous you believe in.

Straw argument - I am not claiming that "different is bad", I am claiming that a sketch that clearly took only one minute in MS Paint to introduce a "new vision of a character" that involves drawing the character in the crudest possible version of the same way she is always drawn with no characterization or storyline put in whatsoever, just a tag saying "the character whose only outside-the-fanbase recognition factor is as an idiot is this ethnic stereotype" is not a difference worth having.

It would be different from most Touhou fics if I wrote a fanfic by slapping my hand on the keyboard and putting up some MS Paint doodles I scrawled while I was drunk. In what way would such a thing be worth actually posting and sharing, however?

Different is not a virtue. Improvement is a virtue. This is not an improvement.

ThymeParadox said:
I'm truly sorry if you found that portraying Cirno as an Italian immigrant to be offensive, and I understand how ethnic stereotypes aren't fun at all to those of the ethnicity, but this is literally all we've seen of this Cirno so far, and I don't think that DrSunshine meant to portray Italians as dumb, it's just that for some reason, in his mind, Cirno is italian, just as I can't explain why Sanae is Jewish.

Non-apology apology - "apologize" by shifting the blame onto the person who was offended while trying to act befuddled why someone would claim you are a <insert racist/sexist/homophobe/whatever here> simply because you continuously make statements of a <insert racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever here> nature.

Likewise, the "Touhou scholar" argument you make is nothing but ad hominem.

I do not see any other points you are trying to make in the defense of or to justify this comic. Therefore, barring my missing something, your argument is invalid.

@ThymeParadox on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T17:15:06-05:00

NWSiaCB said:
Well, this is shaping up to be uniformly awful as a series.

Well, perhaps not QUITE uniformly, some are merely totally out of character, and others are totally out of character and rather offensively shallow stereotypes to boot.

I guess I should just be thankful Jewish!Sanae didn't come with a big crooked nose...

I'm sorry that DrSunshine is not the esteemed Touhou scholar that you feel is necessary to craft an epic Touhou story, because artists have totally always keep the exact same characterization for the characters of touhou right? Oh wait, no they haven't, like Reimu being a jerk or caring to both humans and youkai, or Sakuya being a cold loyal servant, or making Remilia cry all the time.

Artists are allowed to change things up if they want, and the Touhou fandom is so large you can find crazy different interpretations of each character, because ZUN doesn't really flesh out their personality all that much.

But you being the esteemed Touhou scholar that you are, I'm sure you recall a certain phrase, I do recall it was "Take it easy"? When you take Touhou fandom seriously, we all lose, so if you don't like DrSunshine's characterization of the Touhous, you have plenty of other doujins that will offer the Touhous you believe in.

I'm truly sorry if you found that portraying Cirno as an Italian immigrant to be offensive, and I understand how ethnic stereotypes aren't fun at all to those of the ethnicity, but this is literally all we've seen of this Cirno so far, and I don't think that DrSunshine meant to portray Italians as dumb, it's just that for some reason, in his mind, Cirno is italian, just as I can't explain why Sanae is Jewish.

@UTW on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T16:09:51-05:00

FangPanzer said:
Dude. Chill, man, no sense in losing your head over a web series. That's only slightly more silly then getting mad over a Visual Novel's expended universe.

He's not losing his head over the comic, he's losing his head over the overused and immature response, both of which he's right about anyway.

@Neonie on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T15:54:38-05:00

NWSiaCB said:
Oh, wonderful, this is letting the last dregs that clotted onto SA into the community. I see the quality of meme use and trolling has gone nowhere but downhill, however possible that might be.

Lol I don't even have a Something Awful account. (I'm not gonna pay to use a forum). I'm a danbooru user.

@FangPanzer on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T15:32:41-05:00

NWSiaCB said:
Oh, wonderful, this is letting the last dregs that clotted onto SA into the community. I see the quality of meme use and trolling has gone nowhere but downhill, however possible that might be.

Dude. Chill, man, no sense in losing your head over a web series. That's only slightly more silly then getting mad over a Visual Novel's expended universe.

@NWSiaCB on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T15:28:20-05:00

Neonie said:
You are just butthurt. I am American Italian and I find this portrayal to be accurate.

Oh, wonderful, this is letting the last dregs that clotted onto SA into the community. I see the quality of meme use and trolling has gone nowhere but downhill, however possible that might be.

@Neonie on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T15:23:06-05:00

NWSiaCB said:
Well, this is shaping up to be uniformly awful as a series.

Well, perhaps not QUITE uniformly, some are merely totally out of character, and others are totally out of character and rather offensively shallow stereotypes to boot.

I guess I should just be thankful Jewish!Sanae didn't come with a big crooked nose...

You are just butthurt. I am American Italian and I find this portrayal to be accurate.

@NWSiaCB on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T14:30:28-05:00

Well, this is shaping up to be uniformly awful as a series.

Well, perhaps not QUITE uniformly, some are merely totally out of character, and others are totally out of character and rather offensively shallow stereotypes to boot.

I guess I should just be thankful Jewish!Sanae didn't come with a big crooked nose...

@fortunachan on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T13:52:44-05:00

it's a me, cirno?

@ThymeParadox on post #1096425 (cirno (touhou) drawn by drsunshine)

2012-02-13T13:30:19-05:00

Artist's comments: "Cirno is definitely an Italian immigrant."