Comments on post #705603

@grand_zero on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2012-07-22T01:09:12-04:00

Old is old, but oh well I have fun with this sort of thing.

...Amid all the above, and yes I read it all, all that comes to mind with this picture, leaving the awesomeness of the depiction here aside, is: Gensokyo's Tag Team Tournament.

As for this one... Mokou's win, mainly due to Utsuho's eye giving me the creeps.

Also:

DominoHarvard said:
Whoa, Okuu and Mokou not only burn each other, but also ignites the flames of internet discussions :|

This made my night, thank you.

@DominoHarvard on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-10-04T06:32:54-04:00

Whoa, Okuu and Mokou not only burn each other, but also ignites the flames of internet discussions :|

@Corbun on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T16:46:28-04:00

cd_young said:
Moku is a human who uses fire. if she was immune to it she wouldn't need to use fire repelling charms if she's in complete control of it to the point of immunity.

And noone's calling Okuu old. She's just skilled with her powers. One needs absolute control of nuclear reactions to be able to do anything with them. She's a birdbrain, and not all that gifted in the department of forethought, but she is adept at the applications of nuclear physics and theory which allows her to use her power efficiently.

Konata-LS said:
Moukou was a human that lived for 1000 years and will continue till time ends and beyond. She may have the knowledge of 1000 year of fighting, but the same can be said for Utsuho too.

I'm noticing when I point something out with example either its confused for my assumptions or someone makes up a "what if"...
And that's frustrating me, the "she has charms" THEY ARE ON HER CLOTHES. This means she is often assaulted by her own fire. Do you know what fire does to clothes? It burns them. Shockingly, she doesn't want to be naked mid-fight. But clearly this means she protects herself with it because her clothes must be an extension of herself...

@cd_young on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T16:37:41-04:00

Moku is a human who uses fire. if she was immune to it she wouldn't need to use fire repelling charms if she's in complete control of it to the point of immunity.

And noone's calling Okuu old. She's just skilled with her powers. One needs absolute control of nuclear reactions to be able to do anything with them. She's a birdbrain, and not all that gifted in the department of forethought, but she is adept at the applications of nuclear physics and theory which allows her to use her power efficiently.

@Corbun on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T16:11:31-04:00

Honestly lets move this to the chat room I don't have the energy to read the entire page every time i come back to respond.

cd_young said:
Ciro's power is the ability to manipulate chilly air, and Letty's is to manipulate Winter cold. Neither of those powers directly relate to creation or destruction of ice,

Read some of the latest mischevious fairy mangas, one of them cirno freezes a fish in a block of ice.
Additionally, it's not the OPPOSITE of flan's power, it's undoing it. SHe can't just undo the destruction caused, but regardless it was an example so I'm not going to waste time on that.

Okuu is immune to her powers because

And what do you think that translates to for MOKOU?
This is honestly getting painful because the cmoments are just degrading further into pointless "what if's", being "utsuho, thousands of years of experience" Pretty sure those over a thousand are generally looked at as old, and utsuho is never hinted at being experienced with combat OR full of wisdom. I really don't have it in me to go any further due to the fact that we apparently completely DROPPED facts and started depending on "WELL THEY NEVER SAID SHE DIDN'T/COULDN'T/WOULDN'T"...
And again, this probably isn't suited to a comment page, someone determine a chatroom lol

@Philemon on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T14:10:52-04:00

Byakugan01 said:
Actually...fire is a chemical reaction (specifically, oxidation). Plasma is the fourth state of matter, when electrons spearate from the nucleus. The two really aren't the same.

Huh, Wikipedia lied to me.

Wikipedia said:
The flame is the visible portion of the fire and consists of glowing hot gases. If hot enough, the gases may become ionized to produce plasma.

I assumed what I assumed since Artahka also said plasma > fire, so I thought there was a connection between the two. Though of course, I might just be understanding that wrong.

@cd_young on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T13:43:26-04:00

The Moon bitches are somewhat younger then Erin. they have had centuries to mellenia to practice with their skills.

@Byakugan01 on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T13:27:51-04:00

Actually...fire is a chemical reaction (specifically, oxidation). Plasma is the fourth state of matter, when electrons spearate from the nucleus. The two really aren't the same.

@Philemon on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T12:36:49-04:00

Artahka said:
Well, what defines victory when both combatants are immortal? Mokou is definitely Kaguya's rival; but that doesn't necessarily mean that Mokou is as strong as Kaguya.

Victory or no victory is irrelevant. Mokou somehow manages to kill Kaguya as much as Kaguya kills her. That's what's relevant, and it speaks something about their power level similarity.

Artahka said:
Remember, in IN, Mokou "died" every single time her spell cards were beaten, whereas Kaguya didn't die at all.

Yeah, that thing in IN was weird, but I thought it was because Kaguya specifically asked the heroines to kill Mokou (despite the spell card rules), whereas during Kaguya's fight, it was purely spell card.

So it was circumstantial, is what I'm saying. If you're using this as a measure for Mokou's weakness, then you're saying that things like Mystia are actually stronger than Mokou because Mystia doesn't die in the spell card fight against the heroines.

Artahka said:
Also, being a princess doesn't necessarily mean she's extraordinarily strong. This isn't the animal world, bro!

That didn't stop the Watatsukis from owning Remilia co.

Artahka said:
Also, controlling heat =/= controlling fire. Controlling heat means controlling temperature, which means both extreme side of the spectrum should be usable (heat/cold). So Mokou can't control heat, just fire.

I did some google search, and at temperature nuclear fusion takes place, "fire" doesn't exist; only plasma. And since plasma =/= fire and plasma > fire, I'd say advantage goes to Unyu.

Actually, it's right around my point before. Plasma is more or less really hot fire, which is Mokou's power. How can you say Mokou can only stop at fire and not go Beyond the Impossible into plasma when it's just one step away? I'm not even asking for Mokou to suddenly develop the power to manipulate wind. Plasma is just right there besides fire, why can't she go there?

Case in point, I'll bring again: Reimu's ability to fly. By realistic standard, this only means to fly like a bird, but nooo-- she literally floats above reality. She goes one step farther than the common or literal definition of flight.

But well, this is coming from an uneducated person, so eh. I actually like both Unyu and Moko, and would prefer seeing them join up against some bad guys rather than having to choose between the two. I'm just arguing for the hell of it, since everybody seems to be rooting for Utsuho.

@Artahka on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T11:53:59-04:00

Philemon said:
Hey hey, let me join!

I'm not very knowledgeable about the whole technicalities behind fire and nuclear, but I wonder if limiting Mokou to realistic fires isn't being overly technical. I mean, Mokou is using magic here, so how can you say that she'll only be able to produce as far as normal fires go? This is the land where the power of flying can take you floating above reality.

The same goes for Unyu of course, but all I'm saying is that since nuclear fusion causes heat anyway, and heat is within the domain of Mokou, how can you say Mokou absolutely can't match Utsuho at all? It's not realistic fire anymore, but that's only because we never had an instance of it, no?

And dismissing Mokou's talismans as mere paper is rather underestimating. This is, again, the land where mikos regularly fight earth-splitting youkai using those very same talismans, so...

Anyway, it's just that Mokou is equally matched to Kaguya since they kill and get killed by each other in regular basis. Kaguya is a lunarian, and as we all know, ZUN LOVES the lunarians. They're above most of earth youkai in terms of power, and Kaguya is their princess.

And Mokou is her match. Unless you're going to say that all this time Kaguya went easy on Mokou, well, it should say something about how powerful Mokou is.

Well, what defines victory when both combatants are immortal? Mokou is definitely Kaguya's rival; but that doesn't necessarily mean that Mokou is as strong as Kaguya. Remember, in IN, Mokou "died" every single time her spell cards were beaten, whereas Kaguya didn't die at all. Also, being a princess doesn't necessarily mean she's extraordinarily strong. This isn't the animal world, bro!

Also, controlling heat =/= controlling fire. Controlling heat means controlling temperature, which means both extreme side of the spectrum should be usable (heat/cold). So Mokou can't control heat, just fire.

I did some google search, and at temperature nuclear fusion takes place, "fire" doesn't exist; only plasma. And since plasma =/= fire and plasma > fire, I'd say advantage goes to Unyu.

@Philemon on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T11:41:27-04:00

Hey hey, let me join!

I'm not very knowledgeable about the whole technicalities behind fire and nuclear, but I wonder if limiting Mokou to realistic fires isn't being overly technical. I mean, Mokou is using magic here, so how can you say that she'll only be able to produce as far as normal fires go? This is the land where the power of flying can take you floating above reality.

The same goes for Unyu of course, but all I'm saying is that since nuclear fusion causes heat anyway, and heat is within the domain of Mokou, how can you say Mokou absolutely can't match Utsuho at all? It's not realistic fire anymore, but that's only because we never had an instance of it, no?

And dismissing Mokou's talismans as mere paper is rather underestimating. This is, again, the land where mikos regularly fight earth-splitting youkai using those very same talismans, so...

Anyway, it's just that Mokou is equally matched to Kaguya since they kill and get killed by each other in regular basis. Kaguya is a lunarian, and as we all know, ZUN LOVES the lunarians. They're above most of earth youkai in terms of power, and Kaguya is their princess.

And Mokou is her match. Unless you're going to say that all this time Kaguya went easy on Mokou, well, it should say something about how powerful Mokou is.

@Silva_0920 on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T11:40:53-04:00

I hate posting the same info twice but:

Silva_0920 said:
Regulate: To CONTROL or DIRECT by a rule, principle, method, etc.: to regulate household expenses. (Definition 1, from dictionarty.com)

And, control happen to mean: to exercise restraint or direction over; dominate; command. (Definition 1, from dictionary.com)

Which means Okuu can indeed suppress fire. Also, contrary to popular belief, nuclear fusion is capable of cooling. Any atoms that are heavier than iron (I think) require energy from the surrounding to fuse. Energy is transferred through heat, so causing fusion with heavier atoms will create frigid surroundings. So from ability point of view, it isn't too far-fetched to believe Okuu can suppress, or even negate, fire/heat.

Corbun said:
Yes time does not directly reflect experience, but you require time to even have a CHANCE. She is not exactly displayed as a genius combatant or strategist.

I agree with you completely on this one. However, let's go back to the original argument: Nuclear fusion vs heat. I think we've both agreed that nuclear fusion has rather large upperhand when it comes to firepower. If we compare the fundamental difference between their ability, Okuu has huge advantage over Mokou. Think of it as using an atomic bomb; you don't need experience to level a city or two. Also, Okuu does have SOME experience; she battled with Reimu/Marisa in SA. And the fact that she danmakued suggests that she is in control of her power, enough so that the heroines won't die due to an accidental outburst. Also, how much of her experience fighting against Kaguya would actually help against Okuu? Two of them are very different fighters, and different fighters require different strategies.

Corbun said:
Maribel Hearn

While temporarily in Gensokyo in her dreams at a time period of several hundred years ago, Maribel Hearn had gotten lost in the bamboo forest and was attacked by a mouse or rabbit youkai. Mokou (unnamed in the story, but it is extremely implied) rescued her by fending off the youkai, but Mokou's power of fire was such that it left Maribel just as frightened, and Maribel ran away, believing that power like that couldn't be called human.

This paragraph doesn't clarify as to what made Maribel flee. Was it the size of the flame? Was it the temperature? Or was it even Mokou herself, who was using the fire? Maribel is relatively normal girl, which means witnessing paranormal event would, at the very least, shock her. "Mokou's power of fire was such that it left Maribel just as frightened" doesn't really dictate which x factor caused her fleeing. This is what I mean by making assumptions. Maribel ran away from Mokou. This is a fact. What made Maribel run away was Mokou's power. This is also a fact. But what characteristics of Mokou's ability made Maribel flee is an x factor. You have, once again, assumed that it was the heat from Mokou's fire that made Maribel run. But really, this topic is not really relevant to the main discussion, so let's drop it, mmkay?

I would like to end this post by saying that the only person riled up at this point is yourself, Corbun. I have been presenting my findings/ideas fairly neutrally (with few light pokes here and there, I'll admit) with facts from the most credible source I could find. You, on the other hand, have been heated up for quite some time. You presented some solid arguments, but most of them were aligned with bias and full of emotions. You wrote in your last post that my posts have "riled you up". I am sorry about that, but if simple jabs like mine are enough to make you go into all caps rage, then you really need more calcium in you. I personally am enjoying this discussion, but your attitude is making the experience for the worse.

@cd_young on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T11:29:03-04:00

Corbun said:
Take Cirno or Letty: Create Ice. Can they remove ice? I know Cirno can't, letty not so sure but let's just say she can't either.

Ciro's power is the ability to manipulate chilly air, and Letty's is to manipulate Winter cold. Neither of those powers directly relate to creation or destruction of ice, but to the control of how cold or warm something can get. Which, since their powers are broad enough means they CAN create or melt ice as they wish.

Corbun said:
Another example would be Flan unable to restore the damage she causes.
Sakuya however is confirmed to have complete control of time, but I just woke up so I don't have it in me to start on the theory of time control.
...
Oh my god is this what I do with my life and knowledge?

Ok this is utterly flawed. Flan's portfolio is exclusively the control of destructive force. You cannot fix a window pane with a hammer.

Sakuya's manipulation of time is only linear, she can stop and speed up time, but she can't reverse it.

Corbun said:
And my comment about her hitting HERSELF was 1. She has spells where she is already consumed by her energy, thus already canonically immune to her own powers, leading to 2. No reason Mokou wouldn't be resistant to hers, which is a much broader category. Also adding a smiley face doesn't hide the fact you are getting defensive, you may want to hold back on all the minor jabs.

Okuu is immune to her powers because otherwise she would die from the exreme amounts of radiation she'd be spewing out. And of course she's not a pragmatist, she wields brute force and uses brute force. Aside from that. Moku is a human, an immortal human, but a human. We are not immune to fire and neither is she. (she has fire warding charms in her hair and on her pants, not to mention her shirt is singed and smoke stained. Which shows that she is not immune to her fire magic if she has to protect her clothing and hair from it.)

@Konata-LS on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T11:07:37-04:00

I've read Most (ie: not all) the comments and this is my take.

Moukou is a "Vulnerable Immortal", Utsuho is a Youkai. Both can die, but Moukou will revive.
On the age argument, Youkai can live for Millennia and still look young *cough*Yukari*cough*, but are still aging albeit slower than most.
Moukou was a human that lived for 1000 years and will continue till time ends and beyond. She may have the knowledge of 1000 year of fighting, but the same can be said for Utsuho too.
On the Fire vs Nuke aspect and ability to withstand an attack, I have to side this Utsuho. The highest fire temp is 4,525 °C. The average Nuclear fusion temp is 800,000,000 °K. That by far is a massive gap in heat resistant.
A normal human would be turn to ash at 1150 °C within 2 to 2 1/2 hours, so bumping up the heat to Moukou's level would take a few seconds. The heat at Utsuho's level will make most, if not all, stars feel like liquid nitrogen in comparison. So Heat resistance is a Moot point due to the Massive Overkill.
Now to move on to the real thing. If they were to fight as "How's Hottest?", It would be all Okuu. Moukou doesn't have the power to even make Okuu flinch.
Longevaty, Moukou will just rize for her ashes (and there will definally be ashes) until, like some said above, Okuu gets tired or dies from old age.

(I'm a Deadliest Warrior fan, so this is right up my alley)

@Corbun on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T08:57:02-04:00

Silva_0920 said:
etc.

Dude every time I type out an essay and look back later i realize you JUST typed one a few minutes before me lmao.
Yes time does not directly reflect experience, but you require time to even have a CHANCE. She is not exactly displayed as a genius combatant or strategist.
And my comment about her hitting HERSELF was 1. She has spells where she is already consumed by her energy, thus already canonically immune to her own powers, leading to 2. No reason Mokou wouldn't be resistant to hers, which is a much broader category. Also adding a smiley face doesn't hide the fact you are getting defensive, you may want to hold back on all the minor jabs.

Silva 0920 said:
Just like I can't prove that Reimu had fire wards, you can't prove that Maribel was scared of Mokou the person, instead of fire

Maribel Hearn

While temporarily in Gensokyo in her dreams at a time period of several hundred years ago, Maribel Hearn had gotten lost in the bamboo forest and was attacked by a mouse or rabbit youkai. Mokou (unnamed in the story, but it is extremely implied) rescued her by fending off the youkai, but Mokou's power of fire was such that it left Maribel just as frightened, and Maribel ran away, believing that power like that couldn't be called human.

I think that speaks for itself. To be satyr of your lashes: Maybe you should read through carefully before making assumptions. Regulate doesn't mean she can just stop it, it mean's she doesn't just continuously heat it all the time. She leaves it to cool, maybe having some sort of venting for it, or water. Nothing has been stated about just magically making things hot or not, she was charging nuclear energy.
Tell me, what is the process and result of "reversing" Nuclear Fusion? Fission. She can't just cool it down with the power of "Manipulation of fusion". And I already ranted about not necessarily having control of both sides but with more clarity i can say that's more for something that's in a category like fire, ice, etc (Nature Elements), versus things like Time, Nuclear fusion, Fate.
I don't know if you noticed, but we were kind of reaching the happy conclusion of everyone laughing about how silly we were. Please refrain from running in and riling people (me) up.

@Corbun on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T08:39:46-04:00

cd_young said:
Well, the second part is wrong, Okuu has no powers directly related to controlling fire. But, Moku's control of the Phoenix fire she uses in her danmaku is also imperfect since she can't suppress fire either.

Just so you know(Looking back i realize majority of my speech was using this), I was using everyone else assumptions to point out either contradictions in it (for it to be seen, and to avoid saying "NO THAT'S WRONG THIS IS THIS" (because I like caps)
Unless you're referring to a piece of text I myself was referring to, and this is just me getting ahead of myself. Then just lemme know and I'll delete this.
This site needs a chat room for this sort of debate...
Btw: Mokou's phoenix is only that as a symbol of her spellcard, and thus commonly linked to her; this is actually fanon. As far as we are concerned, it's just a symbol regarding her abilities of immortality and fire. (Though OBVIOUSLY ZUN intended her powers to resemble a phoenix...This is just splitting hairs) Also I think control of it is kind of like anyone elses that controls an actual substance of sorts.
Take Cirno or Letty: Create Ice. Can they remove ice? I know Cirno can't, letty not so sure but let's just say she can't either. I'm just saying i don't think you can reverse everything with your power, manipulate is more to mean you can cause and change it, so there's a bit of maneuverability in it, as opposed to doing it and the opposite (which would be like changing the border of grammar).
Another example would be Flan unable to restore the damage she causes.
Sakuya however is confirmed to have complete control of time, but I just woke up so I don't have it in me to start on the theory of time control.
...
Oh my god is this what I do with my life and knowledge?

@Silva_0920 on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T08:32:52-04:00

Corbun said:
Their firepower is different in basic concepts...

That right there was the point I was trying to make. Their fundamental difference in firepower.

Corbun said:
...Overwhelmed by her own attack being an attempt to hit EVERYTHING, because it doesn't take POWER to hit someone, it takes skill to be accurate. Hitting EVERYTHING usually involves yourself...

You made more assumptions, despite my best efforts to stay on facts only! [inc. retaliating assumptions] What makes you think Mokou is fast/agile enough to force Utsuho to fire everywhere? What makes you think Utsuho is unskilled? Sure she just got her power, but does time = experience? It certainly plays a hand, but it's not a factor that's set in stone. For all we know, Okuu could be a fast learner. Also,

Corbun said:
...i pointed that out is that the argument started as mokou not being resistant to fire whatsoever and yet one assumes utsuho would be resistant t oher own power correct? What stops mokou from being resistant to FIRE?...

Silva_0920 said:
Mokou's ability is eternal youth and immortality, along with imperfect control over fire (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Article_and_Interview:_Mokou). She can produce them and direct them, but she can't douse it. SHE IS ALSO RESISTANT TO FIRE.

I know it's a huge wall of text, but might help to read over everything if you're planning on disputing. :)

Corbun said:
Additionally, could you point out where it says okuu can supress fires? Because that implies she can through power just stop afire from going. I have yet to see this anywhere considering you declared "facts" beforehand.

Okuu is located at the Former Hell of Blazing Fire and regulates the flames (http://touhou.wikia.com/wiki/Okuu). Look under location/occupation. Regulator of Flames in the Former Hell of Blazing Fire.
Regulate: To control or direct by a rule, principle, method, etc.: to regulate household expenses. (Definition 1, from dictionarty.com)
Clear enough for you? Actually, this means Okuu can control/direct fires now. Even better (or worse).

I am going to disregard that Maribel/Reimu comment. That has nothing to do with the main discussion, and my point in bringing those topics was that assumptions can work both ways. Just like I can't prove that Reimu had fire wards, you can't prove that Maribel was scared of Mokou the person, instead of fire (or other way around, w/e). Done.

@cd_young on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-29T08:08:19-04:00

Well, the second part is wrong, Okuu has no powers directly related to controlling fire. But, Moku's control of the Phoenix fire she uses in her danmaku is also imperfect since she can't suppress fire either.

@Corbun on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-28T23:06:43-04:00

cd_young said:
She CAN'T suppress fire. Okuu has lived and worked in a furnace all of her existence, building up a tolerance to it would only be natural.

Edited out derp. I got a head of my self again

Just to be clear It was regarding:

Silva 0920 said:
One can produce and manipulate fire imperfectly, while other can manipulate nuclear fusion and supress/enhance fires.

@cd_young on post #705603 (fujiwara no mokou and reiuji utsuho (touhou) drawn by shigurio)

2011-09-28T22:50:23-04:00

She CAN'T suppress fire. Okuu has lived and worked in a furnace all of her existence, building up a tolerance to it would only be natural.

Edited out derp. I got a head of my self again