Comments on commenter:persocom01

@Sigfried666 on post #3832398 (bremerton (azur lane) drawn by katsudansou)

2020-03-26T14:36:09-04:00

blindVigil said:

We have had events with the Ironblood ships interacting peacefully with the Royal Navy ships, including the other factions. Wales and Eugen even have a lot of lines in their alternate skins that show they get along very well, they're almost a canon couple.

Damn, I don't usually buy skins. I need more disposable income.

Also, I've been posting too much in the same picture...
Is it kinda wrong to do so?

@blindVigil on post #3832398 (bremerton (azur lane) drawn by katsudansou)

2020-03-26T13:26:21-04:00

Sigfried666 said:

And now, I'm sure there would be people angry if we had events with Ironbloods mingling peacefully with the Royal Navy...
But, well, there is always someone angry, anyways. XD

We have had events with the Ironblood ships interacting peacefully with the Royal Navy ships, including the other factions. Wales and Eugen even have a lot of lines in their alternate skins that show they get along very well, they're almost a canon couple.

@Sigfried666 on post #3832398 (bremerton (azur lane) drawn by katsudansou)

2020-03-26T13:07:29-04:00

blindVigil said:

All of the major events prior to the last US based event were recreations of actual historical events during the war. It wasn't until recently that events started to have original plots, because the Sirens were running "simulations" over and over to test shipgirls and humanity.

I must say I personally don't like the story and events recreating history. That's silly of me, but I kinda get miffed at the disconnect between my base and the "serious" parts of the story.
Mostly because I like laid back narratives myself. XD
I mean, we have Bismark sinking Hood, Bismark being sunk. Conflicts between Ironblood and Eagle Union and Royal Navy all around.

Yet, I can put them all to mingle together in a bath filled with beer or a pool of plastic balls.
So, I kinda like more slice of life events than historical accuracy.
I guess you can say I'm in the part of the fandom that likes to see silly jokes and interactions between all characters.

And now, I'm sure there would be people angry if we had events with Ironbloods mingling peacefully with the Royal Navy...
But, well, there is always someone angry, anyways. XD

BTW, it seems the new event just went up. But I'm still spending all my sanity in Arknights, since they also just got a new event.

@Sigfried666 on post #3834723 (baltimore and baltimore (azur lane) drawn by feng_ze)

2020-03-26T12:40:38-04:00

Elmithian said:
Edit. Plus, doesn't Z46 have literal permanent "tattoos/markings" on her skin? There was no uproar about her if memory serves.

From what I can understand, it's like this...
Z46 had tattoos since her debut. It was a part of her character from the get got, so people accepted it without to much fuss. It's how she is, and all that.
But Baltimore didn't have tattoos before. Not in her default skin nor in her schoolgirl skin.
So maybe, I can't say for sure, some people got bothered and even offended that suddenly, without any apparent reason, their waifu turned into a stereotypical "slut".

That seems to carry too much projection, like, the people had to be "enamorated" with Baltimore's design AND had to have a prejudice against tattoos.
So, don't take my word for it, it's just how I interpret the reasoning.

@Elmithian on post #3834723 (baltimore and baltimore (azur lane) drawn by feng_ze)

2020-03-26T11:23:09-04:00

Mithiwithi said:

More to the point, the sailors aboard WW2-era US ships quite often had their fair share of tattoos. I have my doubts that the flower tattoos this girl is sporting would've been typical, so this image may not be a good example, but it would make a lot of sense for an Eagle Union girl to have sailor tattoos.

I personally won't get myself a tattoo due to knowing that due to my impulses I will pick something A) Will regret and B) won't look that good on me when I am wrinkly old bugger. I won't stop others though. Hell, one of my best friends recently got himself a Norse themed tattoo which looks pretty good on him.

But for someone like a shipgirl that apparently don't grow or seemingly age the same way (if we go by the official "slow ahead" manga) as we do, I think it would likely not be a bad idea, as either the tattoo is going to last forever without much degradation or it will last super short as their cells remove and clean more effectively than ours.

Either way, it is win-win for them since their appearance won't change (though if they want to get it removed and their cells don't work extremely effectively, then it is going to be major pain).

Edit. Plus, doesn't Z46 have literal permanent "tattoos/markings" on her skin? There was no uproar about her if memory serves.

@blindVigil on post #3834723 (baltimore and baltimore (azur lane) drawn by feng_ze)

2020-03-26T11:15:06-04:00

Guardian54 said:

Temporary tattoos are mostly treated as just another flavour of body paint or cosmetics i.e. whatever m8. However, many people hold this opinion on permanent tattoos:

1. If it's to commemorate a major event such as a wartime campaign, it's a badge of honour and should be seen as such... Unless you are faking it, in which case STOLEN VALOUR REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

2. "Because it made me feel prettier" or "because I felt like it" is "Huh, so you had enough body image neuroticism that you decided to do a (near) permanent bodily modification because your emotions could not be quelled otherwise." i.e. black flags.
The Tenth Commandment of World of Tanks sayeth "If thy rage cannot be contained, and thy lamentations ariseth with much profanity, perhaps the time to stop is nigh upon you." In this case, it's "if thy obsession with body image cannot be contained, and thy lamentations ariseth with much permanent bodily modification, perhaps the time to stop is nigh upon you." i.e. consult a doctor.

Baltimore, as a shipgirl, falls firmly in category 1.

Okay, I think you're seriously overblowing the significance of tattoos for the sake aesthetics. Tattoos are not a sign of mental instability, and I certainly wouldn't put them on the same level as things like cosmetic plastic surgery. They don't need to be culturally significant or for the sake of commemoration to be justified.

@Mithiwithi on post #3834723 (baltimore and baltimore (azur lane) drawn by feng_ze)

2020-03-26T10:55:17-04:00

Keo said:

But tattoo are usually used as a sign of cool or badassness too. If anything, I believe that it is very appropriate that personification of warships HAVE tattoos, similar to how you have paintings and grafting on the side of many warships/warplanes. I’m actually more surprise more artist don’t do such depictions.

I think this is especially a brilliant idea for western ships since when you think of American or Western ships, you have a thought of how awesome they are.

More to the point, the sailors aboard WW2-era US ships quite often had their fair share of tattoos. I have my doubts that the flower tattoos this girl is sporting would've been typical, so this image may not be a good example, but it would make a lot of sense for an Eagle Union girl to have sailor tattoos.

@KyteM on post #3832398 (bremerton (azur lane) drawn by katsudansou)

2020-03-26T10:34:31-04:00

This was definitely a mistake, it's happened before. Not all artists are good at mechanical design or naval buffs (particularly since Manjuu, unlike C2, doesn't make a point of going for artists with a mecha musume background).

It will probably get fixed at some point, AL plays it fast and loose with many things but they do try to keep the rigging accurate.

@Guardian54 on post #3834723 (baltimore and baltimore (azur lane) drawn by feng_ze)

2020-03-26T10:32:44-04:00

Temporary tattoos are mostly treated as just another flavour of body paint or cosmetics i.e. whatever m8. However, many people hold this opinion on permanent tattoos:

1. If it's to commemorate a major event such as a wartime campaign, it's a badge of honour and should be seen as such... Unless you are faking it, in which case STOLEN VALOUR REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

2. "Because it made me feel prettier" or "because I felt like it" is "Huh, so you had enough body image neuroticism that you decided to do a (near) permanent bodily modification because your emotions could not be quelled otherwise." i.e. black flags.
The Tenth Commandment of World of Tanks sayeth "If thy rage cannot be contained, and thy lamentations ariseth with much profanity, perhaps the time to stop is nigh upon you." In this case, it's "if thy obsession with body image cannot be contained, and thy lamentations ariseth with much permanent bodily modification, perhaps the time to stop is nigh upon you." i.e. consult a doctor.

Baltimore, as a shipgirl, falls firmly in category 1.

@blindVigil on post #3832398 (bremerton (azur lane) drawn by katsudansou)

2020-03-26T09:41:19-04:00

Sigfried666 said:

Makes sense, but feels sad, to me. If the only thing that matters is the correct representation of the ship, and the girls appearance, personality, quirks and all are irrelevant, wouldn't the player be better served with a game about the ships themselves, without all this personifictaion thing?
I mean, lots of the ships skins sell based on being eye-candy or sexy artwork, so at this point, the riggings start being ignored and the attention goes to the girl's appearance and personality.
I suppose then, the whole cosmetic skin is irrelevant to the player that fixates on historical accuracy?

I didn't mean to imply that the girls themselves are irrelevant, obviously most players are playing for the girls, some players are playing for the ships, and some are playing for both. I play for the girls, personally, my naval knowledge is tangential at best.

My point was that the appearance and personality of the girls is entirely up to the interpretation of the artist/developer/writer, and will vary from person to person. You can use ships that are present in both KC and AL as an example, they're totally different. But this makes the girls and their appeal entirely subjective. Any complaints about them are going to be personal taste and opinion.

The rigging however is established, it has preexisting relevance. If you take the rigging away, you're left with just a regular girl. It's the thing that makes them a shipgirl. So if nothing else, that part should probably be accurate.

Sorry, I might seem to be acting like a troll at times, it's not really my intention.
The whole AL universe happens in a different reality, in a way different way that KC does, for example. Characters don't seem to act like they are incarnations of previous real battleships that sunk in real battles like KC does, so I wonder if the events themselves are based on historical events or not.

AL shipgirls reference historical events all the time. Their profiles and introduction lines usually make mention of one or more of their notable achievements, and many of them have multiple lines, some vague and some blunt, referencing battles they participated in, enemy ships they sank or were sunk by, ect. Minneapolis expresses some minor anxiety regarding torpedoes because she was critically wounded by one. Royal Navy ships mistaking Prinz Eugen for Bismarck and Bismarck subsequently sinking Hood in the prologue was a real life historical event.

All of the major events prior to the last US based event were recreations of actual historical events during the war. It wasn't until recently that events started to have original plots, because the Sirens were running "simulations" over and over to test shipgirls and humanity.

Still, and that's my opinion, I feel that being angry at the wrong number of turrets is too much.

But how much details are enough? Just like we always have people unsatisfied by the "girls" personalities and appearance, won't we have people that can always find the "riggings" lacking in some part?

Being angry about it is definitely unreasonable. There's always gonna be someone who's more pissed off than they have any need to be. Especially when this hasn't been a problem with other ships, the devs clearly take the character design process very seriously, and mistakes like this are very uncommon.

That said, while I don't strongly care and wouldn't have even noticed if it wasn't pointed out, I do feel that at least the type and number of guns is worth getting right, it hardly seems like a small thing to overlook.

TL;DR
I can now understand why Bremerton having one turret too many would matter to lots of people.

I just wonder she was made with four turrets for aesthetic reasons because the artists likes symmetry, or if it was a lack of respect and research to the original Bremerton.
I believe it's the former, it was simply some artistic freedom for a style that better satisfied him, with no intention to offend anyone.

I actually looked up the real life Bremerton cause of this. Two of her three main guns are situated on her bow(front) and the third is on her stern(back). If you look at AL Bremerton, her rigging consists of two ship bows. Baltimore's rigging is the exact same way, it's two bows, but she has two guns on one side and a single gun on the other.

This makes it look to me like it was entirely an oversight, they used the same rigging idea for Bremerton, because they're sister ships, but accidentally added a fourth gun. It could've been intentional, of course, but if it worked for Baltimore I see no reason it couldn't have worked for Bremerton.

@Sigfried666 on post #3832398 (bremerton (azur lane) drawn by katsudansou)

2020-03-26T08:20:49-04:00

kibehisa said:

From a historical standpoint, that's actually consistent: the girls with Eagle-Union/Royal-Navy style mechanical rigging are Tsarist/White era designs (who strongly favored the US and UK in technology sharing) whereas the IronBlood/Siren-inspired mechanical-beast type rigging girls are Soviet/Red era designs (who strongly favored the Germans and Italians in technology sharing).

That's very interesting. Does reinforce the importance of historical research for the representation.

blindVigil said:
The rigging is the one thing that matters most. That's the only thing connecting them to the ships they're supposed to personify. The appearance of the girl, her personality, those can be whatever...

Makes sense, but feels sad, to me. If the only thing that matters is the correct representation of the ship, and the girls appearance, personality, quirks and all are irrelevant, wouldn't the player be better served with a game about the ships themselves, without all this personifictaion thing?
I mean, lots of the ships skins sell based on being eye-candy or sexy artwork, so at this point, the riggings start being ignored and the attention goes to the girl's appearance and personality.
I suppose then, the whole cosmetic skin is irrelevant to the player that fixates on historical accuracy?

Sorry, I might seem to be acting like a troll at times, it's not really my intention.
The whole AL universe happens in a different reality, in a way different way that KC does, for example. Characters don't seem to act like they are incarnations of previous real battleships that sunk in real battles like KC does, so I wonder if the events themselves are based on historical events or not.

Personally, I play for the cute girls, I don't know how to differentiate one ship from the other.
Of course, I've been absorbing some basic knowledge... I can at least not mix up a battleship with a carrier...

blindVigil said:
If you showed me a girl equipped with some warship guns, and said she was USS Cleveland, but her rigging was composed entirely of equipment used by IJN Mogami, then the only proof that this girl was Cleveland is your insistence that that's who she's supposed to be.

Yes, you are totally right. That would be completely pushing it, and I should have been clearer, complete disconnect with reality is extremelly rude to the inspiration source.
Your example would totally give that awfull direspectful feeling we get when we see those totally wrong knock-off bootleg products on the irregular market. Like digimon in pokeballs, or some Avengers backpack with Shrek in place of the Hulk...

Still, and that's my opinion, I feel that being angry at the wrong number of turrets is too much.
But then again, would I accept a Sega Master System personification with 6 button controllers? I guess not, so...
Yes, I said it before, but I can see why it would bother warship fans.
Is it a detail? Yes, it is.
But I guess that is why it matters...

People have been able to guess which ship was being teased from a silhouette just because they could see how many turrets her main guns had or how many guns she had.
There's no point personifying anything at all if you don't get the important details right.

If people can recognize a ship for the amount and style of equipment from a silhouette, more power to them. I'm impressed.
I can't exactly see the difference in the styles of radars and turrets, so I would totally fail at that.
And yes, you got me, like I said in the previous paragraph, details are important, it's where you show respect to the inspirational source.
But how much details are enough? Just like we always have people unsatisfied by the "girls" personalities and appearance, won't we have people that can always find the "riggings" lacking in some part?

TL;DR
I can now understand why Bremerton having one turret too many would matter to lots of people.

I just wonder she was made with four turrets for aesthetic reasons because the artists likes symmetry, or if it was a lack of respect and research to the original Bremerton.
I believe it's the former, it was simply some artistic freedom for a style that better satisfied him, with no intention to offend anyone.

@blindVigil on post #3832398 (bremerton (azur lane) drawn by katsudansou)

2020-03-26T04:33:38-04:00

Sigfried666 said:

But how much accurate are we talking about?
How many attributes need to have real life historical basis?
Won't that somehow limit the imagination and potential of the characters?

I asked before, should the height and weight of the characters be proportional to their real life counterpart?
I mean, maybe they actually are in some cases... Destroyers are mostly young children. But then it doesn't apply to Nagato and Mutsu...
Maybe we should demand more realistic depictions most specifically on the riggings?

The whole point here in this example is that the character has one turret too many and that seems to be unforgivable.
Because being a warship, battling on the seas, using turrets, torpedoes, airplanes and anti-air turrets are not enough historical accuracy.

The rigging is the one thing that matters most. That's the only thing connecting them to the ships they're supposed to personify. The appearance of the girl, her personality, those can be whatever, though there's often some historical or anecdotal influence seen there as well, the state/city Eagle Union ships are named after are sometimes represented in their designs for example.

But you're never really gonna get the girl "right". Someone's always gonna complain that the personality and/or appearance doesn't fit the ship she's supposed to be, and every artist is gonna have a different idea of what those should be like.

The rigging, however, is how you identify the ship, the guns and radars and torpedoes the girl is equipped with are how you prove who she is. If you showed me a girl equipped with some warship guns, and said she was USS Cleveland, but her rigging was composed entirely of equipment used by IJN Mogami, then the only proof that this girl was Cleveland is your insistence that that's who she's supposed to be.

The German and Russian ships having more monstrous and seemingly living rigging parts doesn't change this, either. They're all still using the same guns they used historically, they're recognizable by the equipment they're using. People have been able to guess which ship was being teased from a silhouette just because they could see how many turrets her main guns had or how many guns she had.

If they don't get the rigging right, then there's little point in personifying historical warships at all, at that point it's just an anime girl that happens to share the name. There's no point personifying anything at all if you don't get the important details right.

@Keo on post #3834723 (baltimore and baltimore (azur lane) drawn by feng_ze)

2020-03-26T01:43:50-04:00

Tetsamaru said:

what about cultures that get "markings"? Those are tattoos? Many Indian cultulres have those cool ass shit on their armos and back all the time. When i say Indian, i mean India/Iran and such. Not the American Indians.

Here in Thailand, we have a lot of that too. Its part of our culture.

Well, technically yes. Those "markings" would be general considered tattoos, no? It isn't really that strange since tattoos have been common place for thousands of years and have many cultural significance.

But the thing is that in the more Western countries, tattoos are general not liken due to Christian culture because to graft or temper with the flesh is consider a taboo. Also, tattoos were consider a mark of stigma, mostly to be placed on those that should be shunned by the said community. It doesn't help that generally the people you see portrayed as "bad" people are usually those with tattoos as well.

I also think that it also generally depend on the said tattoos too. Many cultures that I see with markings are pretty distinct and isn't something like the ones you usually see people wear that are more cosmetics.

It's just how some of the societies are. I think if the tattoos are suppose to be more cultural than cosmetic (i.e markings for like Buddhist and whatnot) it isn't really looked at with as much distaste as an entire dragon fighting a tiger sprawled across your entire back like you would see on a Yakuza member's.

@Tetsamaru on post #3834723 (baltimore and baltimore (azur lane) drawn by feng_ze)

2020-03-25T22:30:53-04:00

persocom01 said:

even in western countries, tattoos are looked upon by social conservatives as a mark of a rebel or damaged individual. It is a sign that someone lacks impulse control, doesn't possess christian values or just generally as a sign of disdain for social order. Of course, the more liberal a society is, the more accepting people are of such things. You're likely to find people more accepting of tattoos in big cities than in small towns.

what about cultures that get "markings"? Those are tattoos? Many Indian cultulres have those cool ass shit on their armos and back all the time. When i say Indian, i mean India/Iran and such. Not the American Indians.

Here in Thailand, we have a lot of that too. Its part of our culture.

@kibehisa on post #3832398 (bremerton (azur lane) drawn by katsudansou)

2020-03-25T22:21:40-04:00

Sigfried666 said:

And that does raise a point in case of the Northern Parliament, as some ships didn't have the beast-like appendages.

From a historical standpoint, that's actually consistent: the girls with Eagle-Union/Royal-Navy style mechanical rigging are Tsarist/White era designs (who strongly favored the US and UK in technology sharing) whereas the IronBlood/Siren-inspired mechanical-beast type rigging girls are Soviet/Red era designs (who strongly favored the Germans and Italians in technology sharing).

@Sigfried666 on post #3832398 (bremerton (azur lane) drawn by katsudansou)

2020-03-25T22:03:33-04:00

persocom01 said:

I said that I'm more concerned with consistency. Why be accurate elsewhere and inaccurate here? If some ironblood ships had beast-like appendages and some didn't, I'm more concerned with why not all of them have it than whether they should have it or not.

And that does raise a point in case of the Northern Parliament, as some ships didn't have the beast-like appendages.

persocom01 said:
... people have the expectation that many of the attributes of the resulting character designs have some real life historical basis.

But how much accurate are we talking about?
How many attributes need to have real life historical basis?
Won't that somehow limit the imagination and potential of the characters?

I asked before, should the height and weight of the characters be proportional to their real life counterpart?
I mean, maybe they actually are in some cases... Destroyers are mostly young children. But then it doesn't apply to Nagato and Mutsu...
Maybe we should demand more realistic depictions most specifically on the riggings?

The whole point here in this example is that the character has one turret too many and that seems to be unforgivable.
Because being a warship, battling on the seas, using turrets, torpedoes, airplanes and anti-air turrets are not enough historical accuracy.

But I digress, like I said previously, it does make sense that any warship buff would be angry at an incorrect depiction of a warship.
So, it does matter to them.
I'm not even sure I have a point to defend here, I'm seriously enjoying the conversation. Don't think I'm trying to pick a fight, please.

@Sigfried666 on post #3834723 (baltimore and baltimore (azur lane) drawn by feng_ze)

2020-03-25T21:46:17-04:00

persocom01 said:

so she practically has the type of tattoo that smudges when she works up a sweat. Why.

Maybe she's afraid of needles?
I know I'm never getting a tattoo mostly because the process scares me.

@persocom01 on post #3832398 (bremerton (azur lane) drawn by katsudansou)

2020-03-25T21:45:50-04:00

Sigfried666 said:

...But I kinda dislike the idea of chaining the artists to perfectly correct representations. People might start exagerating.
If we extrapolate from there, for example, we would have to remove the beast-like appendages of the Ironblood and Northern Parliament factions, since they don't seem to represent any proper warship function.

I said that I'm more concerned with consistency. Why be accurate elsewhere and inaccurate here? If some ironblood ships had beast-like appendages and some didn't, I'm more concerned with why not all of them have it than whether they should have it or not.

I will disagree with the idea that artists shouldn't be bound by accurate historical representation of ships, because there are many other games out there that aren't don't have historical material to base their characters on, and such as league of angels or something, and nobody cares about their character details since nobody knows what an angel looks like. But when you market yourself as a anthropomorphized ww2(?) warship game, people have the expectation that many of the attributes of the resulting character designs have some real life historical basis.

@persocom01 on post #3834723 (baltimore and baltimore (azur lane) drawn by feng_ze)

2020-03-25T21:33:54-04:00

Wilfriback said:

According to the description Brementon told Baltimore to use tattoo that are removable with water.

so she practically has the type of tattoo that smudges when she works up a sweat. Why.

@Keo on post #3834723 (baltimore and baltimore (azur lane) drawn by feng_ze)

2020-03-25T21:30:18-04:00

Sigfried666 said:

Well, there was a recent (maybe not that recent) study among japanese men on wether they would have a relationship with tattoed women, and it was extremely negative.
If such mentality is predominant in all eastern markets, it kinda makes sense they usually avoid said element in character creation.

Japan is quite a conservative country so it make sense. It really don’t help that yeah, most those with tattoos are more associated with crime. Old time stigmas does suck, despite back then everybody had tattoos.

It is a shame, cause I really do think Shipgirls/Planegirls/Gungirls with tattoo is quite ingenious and on par with historical representation of said personification. I know I love seeing sigils and cosmetic markings on my war vehicles and weapons whenever I play actual war games. I would love it if this was more a thing.

And I believe that said element might be more bias against females. Many beloved character in the anime market that are consider awesome badasses are usually males.

Kamina, Archer, and literally anyone in Wuxia films. I guess in most people’s eyes, they do perfer females to be more...errr... conservative design and not usually like to be seen as badass. It’s a shame, but I’ll take what I can get as of now.