[REJECTED] Tag alias: jack-o_(guilty_gear) -> jack-o'_valentine

@Mikaeri: > Hillside_Moose said: > > topic #12482....

2017-08-16T00:40:16-04:00

Hillside_Moose said:

topic #12482. Albert originally wanted 75 posts before doing an alias.

Hm, I see. Perhaps it'd be helpful to have it somewhere in the help pages I listed above then.

Not quite. We go by the original order. Makoto Nanaya is one example we've had to reverse a previous nanaya_makoto alias because the JP game lists her name in that order, despite the name being ostensibly Japanese.

Well that's confusing then... If we're applying that rule, then shouldn't the same apply to Kuradoberi Jam? Can't think of any other examples (if there are), but if the JP game also lists her name as Jam Kuradoberi then it feels like we have a problem on our hands.

In general, Danbooru's been moving towards what I call the "common name" as opposed to full names after realizing just how obscure some names are. For example, do you know who Nanakawa Mika is? That said, using full names for the likes of Elphelt and Ramlethal are fine since they're extensions of their names in the character select screen.

Seems like it, doesn't it. To be fair, I prefer it being consistent across the board, which is either of two options:

If there's a full name in the lore, we can apply it to the character in question without the copyright qualifier.
All characters are qualified with the copyright qualifier if their full name isn't shown (or at least, often e.g. character select).

But perhaps it is better to go with aliases for full name to common name in this case. The pixiv tags, actually, are a pretty decent sign of which characters should get the copyright and which shouldn't. For now, those are just two (which have been discussed):

Jack-O' Valentine -> Jack-O' (Guilty Gear) -- as with the common tag in Pixiv
Johnny Sfondi -> Johnny (Guilty Gear) -- same as above

And then, exceptions:

Elphelt Valentine -- Her full name sees a lot of use on other sites, even though her name is usually displayed as just "Elphelt"
Ramlethal Valentine -- same as above

That's just for Xrd, there may be more in the previous games, but I have not looked. Most seem either correct, or up to contention (as mentioned with Anji Mito and Jam Kuradoberi).

EDIT: Would also like to note that my same concern applies to other copyrights such as elsword and closers (full names that aren't well known over the common name).

@Hillside_Moose: > Mikaeri said: > > The rule? Where? I have...

2017-08-15T23:30:25-04:00

Mikaeri said:

The rule? Where? I have read of no such rule in howto:artist, help:tag aliases, or in topic #7713. Not saying you're wrong, but if you're going to use the word "rule" you're going to have to cite it somewhere for me, otherwise I can't take your word for it.

topic #12482. Albert originally wanted 75 posts before doing an alias.

Yeah, and the other way around would mean that users searching for *anji can suddenly find that character. Mito Anji is a Japanese name and that's what we do per howto:romanize. Not to mention it's intuitive, that we always put given names last as they should be. Take for example, if I'm searching for a character I can't quite remember named shouko, then I would typically search *shouko with other tags, such as ~grey_hair ~silver_hair and then I'd see hoshi shouko as the character I'm looking for.

Not quite. We go by the original order. Makoto Nanaya is one example we've had to reverse a previous nanaya_makoto alias because the JP game lists her name in that order, despite the name being ostensibly Japanese.

In general, Danbooru's been moving towards what I call the "common name" as opposed to full names after realizing just how obscure some names are. For example, do you know who Nanakawa Mika is? That said, using full names for the likes of Elphelt and Ramlethal are fine since they're extensions of their names in the character select screen.

@Kikimaru: The simplest thing to do both: * make the...

2017-08-15T20:06:27-04:00

The simplest thing to do both:

make the changes manually
create the BUR

That way, the change is logged but immediately available.

@Mikaeri: > Update would not be sufficient for people who...

2017-08-15T19:24:46-04:00

Update would not be sufficient for people who have bookmarked pages with a search or saved sessions. That's one of the reasons why we do aliased for well established tags.

Then we can't account for that. Best thing we can do is write a wiki page in place for the tag, so it then links to the proper tag. I've done this a few times. Saved searches are in place for a reason.

Regarding Anji, I wasn't saying anything against the change itself. The problem was that you have moved a long standing tag without even saying anything at the forum.

Alias vs Mass Update vs moving manually is not something you or me can decide. This is an issue of Danbooru policies and should be discussed with Mods/Admins.

Yes, and we currently don't have any set guidelines about what to do in cases like these, or at least if there are any, they are notably hard to find. As I said above.

Kikimaru said:

Not to dogpile on you @Mikaeri but the rule is "alias for tags with >50 posts" (though to be safe, I prefer >30).

The rule? Where? I have read of no such rule in howto:artist, help:tag aliases, or in topic #7713. Not saying you're wrong, but if you're going to use the word "rule" you're going to have to cite it somewhere for me, otherwise I can't take your word for it.

Also switching anji_mito -> mito_anji means that users searching for anji* now only see 24 posts, and wonder where their husbando has disappeared to.

Yeah, and the other way around would mean that users searching for *anji can suddenly find that character. Mito Anji is a Japanese name and that's what we do per howto:romanize. Not to mention it's intuitive, that we always put given names last as they should be. Take for example, if I'm searching for a character I can't quite remember named shouko, then I would typically search *shouko with other tags, such as ~grey_hair ~silver_hair and then I'd see hoshi shouko as the character I'm looking for.

Please recreate the moves as BUR.
You do raise a valid point though; BUR takes forever to get approved & I bet it could be done faster manually than via bot.

Maybe, sure. I can create a sort mini-megathread just for all the updates I'm going to be doing, and then whenever an Admin sees it they can just accept those updates and perform those moves so it's updated in the saved searches.

We need to talk about correctness for a bit, and this is what I feel is sort of the failure for most taggers and users on this site when it comes to incorrect but longstanding tags that continue to be in use. As I mentioned just above, there is a certain paradigm when it comes to searching and finding characters or artists you can't quite fully remember who or what they are, or how they're tagged. If a tag is not correct to begin with, then all it does is confuse users such as myself. Of course we can introduce aliases for the most popular characters, but it would be way too much work to continuously issue new ones for all of them, no matter how long such and such tags have been in use -- because a tag's value in adding an alias depends more on its ubiquitousness than by their time span of usage.

TL;DR Correctness and intuitiveness > a tag's longstanding.

Keep in mind that I usually don't make these changes on my own judgement when I'm unsure. I always keep in touch with multiple builder-level users or users well-versed in Japanese about how to correctly read a name or how to correctly qualify one whenever I'm looking around, despite my confidence in the language. This is why I suggested a few weeks ago about revising howto:artist to keep up with current trends and to make sure taggers are using proper tools and coming up with proper patterns for coming up with tags, not just taking a Japanese name verbatim and spitting it into Google Translate (which I've seen many, even builder-level users do).

Admittedly I do have an OCD now about when searching for artists they aren't tagged with the name that they should have here. There are many collisions (that an alias, whether for name correction or long vowel romanizations, would prevent), and many artists that change their names from time to time to something new. In cases like those, I do make sure to add their old name in under "Other names" (so it shows up on artist search), or I even make sure to add their new name under "Other names" in case they change it again.

Taking these things into account, I believe that the way that things are done, especially on my end, could be better. Much better. But the fact of the matter is that requests in topic #7713, along with others, are kept pending for so incredibly long (and perhaps to the point of never being accepted or discussed), that I don't bother anymore. I won't ask the admins to be more active on that front as they're the only ones that can issue these and they presumably work enough as is, but the great majority of work being done on this site is done by builders -- and such things are out of our control, limited by that system.

We have an "other names" field, we have wiki pages that are linked on empty tag searches. It's probably not an ideal solution, but it's better than not doing anything at all. That's what I think. And being that yourselves among other users are showing concern for those kinds of changes, perhaps it's better to discuss that separately.

@Kikimaru: Not to dogpile on you @Mikaeri but the rule is...

2017-08-15T18:10:00-04:00

Not to dogpile on you @Mikaeri but the rule is "alias for tags with >50 posts" (though to be safe, I prefer >30).
===
Also switching anji_mito -> mito_anji means that users searching for anji* now only see 24 posts, and wonder where their husbando has disappeared to.
===
Please recreate the moves as BUR.
You do raise a valid point though; BUR takes forever to get approved & I bet it could be done faster manually than via bot.

@MyrMindservant: Update would not be sufficient for people who...

2017-08-15T16:26:31-04:00

Update would not be sufficient for people who have bookmarked pages with a search or saved sessions. That's one of the reasons why we do aliased for well established tags.

Regarding names, I know the general policy. I also know that more well known names are preferred sometimes, for example see topic #14130.

Regarding Anji, I wasn't saying anything against the change itself. The problem was that you have moved a long standing tag without even saying anything at the forum.

Alias vs Mass Update vs moving manually is not something you or me can decide. This is an issue of Danbooru policies and should be discussed with Mods/Admins.

@Mikaeri: > MyrMindservant said: > >...

2017-08-15T16:01:53-04:00

MyrMindservant said:

jack-o_(guilty_gear) was a well established tag, with almost 300 posts under it. Many people may have it in their saved searches, or bookmarked, possibly as part of some search, or saved in some other way.
Regardless of what we decide to use as our tag for this character, it should have been an alias, rather than a tag move.

Same is also true for johnny_(guilty gear) and anji_mito that were manually moved to johnny_sfondi and mito_anji. They may be smaller, as far as post count is concerned, but they existed and were in use for many years.

For jack-o_(guilty_gear)/jack-o'_valentine and johnny_(guilty gear)/johnny_sfondi, it's also a question if we should even use their full names. They are much more well known as simply Jack-O and Johnny. Which is demonstrated by their pixiv tags: ジャック・オー and ジョニー(ギルティギア), and their pages at Japanese wikipedia: ジャック・オー and ジョニー (GUILTY GEAR).

Personally, I don't mind either way. I just think that it should be discussed, not changed hastily and without a notification at the forum (which was done for Johnny and Anji).

On a related note: @Mikaeri, when you are moving tags, please move/rename the old wiki, rather than delete it and create a new one.
And stuff said here is also relevant for artist tags that you have been moving without saying anything at the forum. Please submit alias requests for artists with 50+ posts.

It should have been an update. That also moves content within searches.

We've commonly went by full names because that's really what stands to be the most unique (as per howto:character: "Whenever possible, characters should be tagged with their full name."). Unless you want there to be a batch BUR that aliases all the "common" in-game names (elphelt_(guilty_gear) -> elphelt_valentine and the like) to their full name, that can be done, sure.

Regarding Mito Anji, it was incorrect to begin with. Anji is their given name -- that's how we standardize Japanese names. The character isn't well-searched, so there's little reason that someone would be confused searching that character when it's a simple change in ordering.

Alias requests are expensive, and admins rarely take a look at that thread anymore. I would prefer it be more an "Artist update request" thread instead. I understand users are busy, but I'd rather an tag be correct earlier than have to wait days on end, just for something my script can do in a matter of minutes.

And on that note, I still have BUR updates pending for a few artists, so unless something changes (as AU's take up a great number of pending requests on the dashboard), then why wait? I comb through so many different artists in a given day that if I had the ability to move them through proper updates, I'd abuse the living hell out of them.

That's for another discussion, though. I'll open up one later if no one else does, but I don't see much reason to do such and such unless the system (and current update climate) allows for me to do as such in a timely manner.

EDIT: FTR, the original page for Jack-O wasn't renamed, yes, but someone else (Flandre5carlet) already created a new wiki page for the character (with the correct name). Typically I would rename it, but the pages had barely any content in it to begin with, so I didn't see the point of doing so (as it would require playing some wiki rename juggling). Thanks for telling me something I already knew, though.

@MyrMindservant: jack-o_(guilty_gear) was a well established...

2017-08-15T15:46:09-04:00

jack-o_(guilty_gear) was a well established tag, with almost 300 posts under it. Many people may have it in their saved searches, or bookmarked, possibly as part of some search, or saved in some other way.
Regardless of what we decide to use as our tag for this character, it should have been an alias, rather than a tag move.

Same is also true for johnny_(guilty gear) and anji_mito that were manually moved to johnny_sfondi and mito_anji. They may be smaller, as far as post count is concerned, but they existed and were in use for many years.

For jack-o_(guilty_gear)/jack-o'_valentine and johnny_(guilty gear)/johnny_sfondi, it's also a question if we should even use their full names. They are much more well known as simply Jack-O and Johnny. Which is demonstrated by their pixiv tags: ジャック・オー and ジョニー(ギルティギア), and their pages at Japanese wikipedia: ジャック・オー and ジョニー (GUILTY GEAR).

Personally, I don't mind either way. I just think that it should be discussed, not changed hastily and without a notification at the forum (which was done for Johnny and Anji).

On a related note: @Mikaeri, when you are moving tags, please move/rename the old wiki, rather than delete it and create a new one.
And stuff said here is also relevant for artist tags that you have been moving without saying anything at the forum. Please submit alias requests for artists with 50+ posts.

@DanbooruBot: The tag alias jack-o_(guilty_gear) ->...

2017-08-13T16:57:24-04:00

The tag alias jack-o_(guilty_gear) -> jack-o'_valentine (alias #14786) has been rejected.

@Mikaeri: Not really, no. I guess it's in the same vein...

2017-08-13T16:41:54-04:00

Not really, no. I guess it's in the same vein as Elphelt Valentine and Ramlethal Valentine. In lore that's their full name, but on the character select screen they're just shown as Elphelt and Ramlethal respectively. If we're being picky though, the alias should be jack-o'_(guilty_gear), not what it is currently.

I'll move them over manually.

@Hillside_Moose: Spoilers?

2017-08-13T16:09:00-04:00

Spoilers?

@Astolfo: create alias jack-o_(guilty_gear) ->...

2017-08-13T09:25:13-04:00

create alias jack-o_(guilty_gear) -> jack-o'_valentine

Link to alias

Jack-O' Valentine is the character's full name, although she is commonly known as just Jack-O'.

The tag alias jack-o_(guilty_gear) -> jack-o'_valentine (alias #14786) has been rejected.