[SPOILER] [Zombieland Saga Ep8] Regarding Hoshikawa Lily

@Hillside_Moose: With respect to spoilers, continue tagging Lily...

2018-11-24T13:56:10-05:00

With respect to spoilers, continue tagging Lily as 1girl unless other visual context suggests otherwise.

However, this decision only applies to this case. Anyone trying to use it as "precedent" to change other existing tags will be reprimanded.

Locking the thread before it spirals into a dumpster fire.

@Unbreakable: Tag Lily as 1girl unless she's shown having a...

2018-11-24T13:26:34-05:00

Tag Lily as 1girl unless she's shown having a dick, that's my stance on it. She's not a trap or anything so no reason to tag her as 1boy unless it's proven to be one in the drawing.

@KeliraTelian: Oh no you used the word trap in its proper...

2018-11-24T13:19:12-05:00

Oh no you used the word trap in its proper context, truly I am defeated!

@nonamethanks: Bruv I'm not sure how everyone else actually...

2018-11-24T13:14:17-05:00

Bruv I'm not sure how everyone else actually fell for your trap but at this point you're pretty much posting word for word some of those "feminine penis" copypastas.

Srsly, I'm extremely disappointed in everyone in this thread.

@KeliraTelian: > nonamethanks said: > > And the reality is...

2018-11-24T13:09:22-05:00

nonamethanks said:

And the reality is that we cannot tell the opinion of a character from a picture - but we can tell whether he's got a dick or not.

Does he have a dick? Does he have boobs? If the answer is "Yes" to the first and "No" to the second, we tag it male. Because danbooru is an image board, not a concept board. We might as well start tagging political positions of characters too.

No

Its cool that you've just come right out and admitted to being a transphobe, really cuts to the chase.

Lily is a transgirl and being able to see her dick doesn't make her not a girl.

Sorry if girldick is a traumatizing experience for you

@nonamethanks: > KeliraTelian said: > > So wait, why does...

2018-11-24T13:08:11-05:00

KeliraTelian said:

So wait, why does 'reality' favor your side, precisely? The reality is that Lily is a transgirl.

And the reality is that we cannot tell the opinion of a character from a picture - but we can tell whether he's got a dick or not.

Does he have a dick? Does he have boobs? If the answer is "Yes" to the first and "No" to the second, we tag him male. If he also crossdresses frequently and pretends to be a girl, it's a trap and we tag him otoko no ko. Because danbooru is an image board, not a concept board. We might as well start tagging political positions of characters too.

Oh yeah, and stop using trap

@KeliraTelian: >Too bad tags have to be grounded in reality...

2018-11-24T13:03:28-05:00

>Too bad tags have to be grounded in reality and not in whatever you like then, eh?

So wait, why does 'reality' favor your side, precisely? The reality is that Lily is a transgirl.

Oh yeah, and stop using trap

@nonamethanks: Seriously, this whole discussion is just...

2018-11-24T13:03:28-05:00

Seriously, this whole discussion is just boggling. Does the fact that Astolfo's bulge is hidden behind a skirt make him male? Do I become a woman if I put lipstick on? Use your brain people, nobody searching for "1girl solo" wants to see a dick in there. Tags exist to be useful, if you start modifying them every time someonne pretends to be offended we might as well just shut down the site.

This whole discussion is meme tier.

Yeah, thats an image of Lily naked, with a dick. That doesn't make her suddenly not a girl.

At this point I'm wondering how everyone ITT actually managed to fall for a troll this obvious.

@nonamethanks: Ah yes, let's complain about transphobia in a...

2018-11-24T12:31:24-05:00

Ah yes, let's complain about transphobia in a site that contains guro, lolicon rape, shitton of rape in general, mutilation, and tons of other very nice content.

The actual issue is that people don't want to see a penis when they search for porn of girls, and again, I don't care if that bothers them.

Too bad tags have to be grounded in reality and not in whatever you like then, eh?

Is everyone going crazy? "Otoko no ko" == "trap" for the purpose of tagging. Why in the world would you put Astolfo, Link or a similar character in the search results of people specifically searching for female characters? Do you want danbooru to be the laughing stock of imageboards?

@NWSiaCB: > Vezral said: > > e.g. Would post #2988531...

2018-11-24T12:07:24-05:00

Vezral said:

e.g. Would post #2988531 counts as 1boy since it explicitly plays up the male side of astolfo? Should context be taken into account when it's comic?

Even by the "trans sensitive" standards KeliraTelian is pushing, Astolfo is male because Astolfo (as a typical Otoko no Ko) identifies as (straight) male even while expressing (looking) female. Again, however, you get into a massively subjective game (which not everyone will be able to play without being able to read the Japanese in the first place when it isn't yet translated) of trying to guess how a character is identifying from looks alone and contrast that to whatever the artist states the intent is, if the artist states that at all... which is a massive subjective minefield and why it can't form a working consensus.

And that's before you deal with characters like Hato from Genshiken who is gender fluid and has a separate female persona that Hato slips in and out of and constantly changing understanding of their own sexuality as the plot progresses, meaning that, if we go by the standard of what the character identifies as, whether you tag "boy" or "girl", you have to go by where in the plot this is supposed to be taking place, which is sheer guesswork. (Or for that matter, a ~~medically~~ magically genderswapped character whose identity comes under question and openly wonders whether still liking girls makes "her" a lesbian.) Playing with gender as a non-binary is kind of a whole subgenre of anime, and hence refusing to recognize that and trying to force binary gender on all of them is just as bad as the "transphobic" not recognizing a character's identity.

People already tag Astolfo as Otoko no Ko and male by default unless there's something that says this version of Astolfo is completely female, but the same goes for Hato or Jun, even when they're identifying as female. (Although I never watched Happiness!, so I have no idea about Jun, which again, is a problem in asking of crowdsourced adjudication of these sorts of things.)

The easiest default we can reach is that a series that treats a character as female should be tagged xgirl unless there's something in the context of the image to say otherwise, while the characters that are treated as male (like Astolfo) are male. That at least means we'll default Lily to xgirl, but there are still going to be artists that draw a Lily identifying as or depicted as male, which are going to take the xboy tags.

@Vezral: > GabrielWB said: > > Hoshikawa Lily is...

2018-11-24T03:22:09-05:00

GabrielWB said:

Hoshikawa Lily is considered a girl by everyone. Tag as 1girl unless the post explicitly portrays Lily as a boy

+1 to this.

Additionally, otoko_no_ko should still be tagged as well if the character is canonically a transgender, regardless of whether the pic in question is the 1girl or 1boy version of the character.

The ideal result should be:

1girl search return pics of girl-looking characters
1girl otoko_no_ko search return pics of girl-looking characters that are actually transgender.
1boy otoko_no_ko search return pics of girl-looking characters with obvious bulge / male genitalia / bare chest (?).

As an image board, I can't imagine people searching for 5girls but absolutely reject 4girls 1boy otoko_no_ko. It makes more sense for 5girls to return exactly what it says with otoko_no_ko acting as the filter.

---

But of course, there needs to be a clear guideline as to the distinction between the 1girl and 1boy versions.

e.g. Would post #2988531 counts as 1boy since it explicitly plays up the male side of astolfo? Should context be taken into account when it's comic?

@Keita-Kuhn: Hey, nice to see I'm being referred to in the...

2018-11-24T01:36:16-05:00

Hey, nice to see I'm being referred to in the OP.

To elaborate further, what I meant was 'refer to source material' taking precedence over "Tag what you see" was in regards to the fact that Lily until the most recent episode was understood by the audience to be a girl, both from what the show presented and what the official site said, and so audiences drew fanart of her as a girl. You don't go and retroactively retag her images as 1boy or the like.

With the current revelation, it would be spoilers to tag it as '1boy' without showing it. More importantly, lets say that the artist drew Lily in a normal outfit with nothing to hint about her being trans and thus having a dick, and somebody did not see the series and uploaded it to danbooru, tagging only what they saw and the name. So say they look up more information about them and see that Lily is a girl on the official site, or the wiki.

So you tag them as a girl. Even knowing the events of the latest episode, you would be wrong to change it.

Transphobic or not, danbooru is primarily an image database. You tag things that are visible so people can find images with easy to search tags. Ideally, this gets people interested in an artist, series, or character and then they go out and search for more, to add to danbooru. Properly curating tags is important for database purposes.

@NWSiaCB: > feline_lump said: > > As for the spoiler...

2018-11-24T00:58:27-05:00

feline_lump said:

As for the spoiler question - every time this happens, it seems to turn into an "everybody knows" deal at some point or another, so I don't know that we're going to have to keep a spoiler moratorium on the tags forever. In fact, even on non-spoiler images, the comments are already so full of discussion about this spoiler that it's difficult to hide that there's something going on. Might very well depend on how long-lasting the fandom is, though.

True, but Zombie Land Saga has been hit with people discussing things in the comments within the first day of the episode going up (including the spoilers of episodes 6 and 7, as well), so there really does need to be some enforcement through at least neutral feedbacks if un-spoiled discussion on non-spoiler-tagged images keeps up, because otherwise people who don't want spoilers on something they intend to watch soon after release but not the instant it comes out will have to actively avoid Danbooru. (I've already just given up on the idea that I'll get to see this show before having it accidentally spoiled while looking at the mod queue or comments.)

Likewise, it can change a lot depending on how much the story expands from there. Shrek, for example, had Fiona becoming an ogre be a reveal and would qualify as a spoiler, but then with all the sequels, she's right up there on the movie posters as an ogre. By that same token, it's kind of hard to keep Haruhi's nature a secret spoiler (the way that TVTropes did) when there's a long-running franchise and tons of fan discussion and it's kind of the central hook of the plot so you can't avoid it.

Meanwhile, I think Lily's transgender nature is probably more ancillary to the plot to the point that it's going to be talked about only when an artist wants to talk about it.

@feline_lump: With regards to how the fanartists are treating...

2018-11-24T00:34:02-05:00

With regards to how the fanartists are treating Lily, I checked the posts made after the reveal and could not find one enthusiastically affirming that the artist believes Lily is a girl. Some are choosing not to address it, and a few are saying "it doesn't matter/Lily is Lily", which is roughly the same tone as the conversation in the show. On the contrary, there's a lot of "otoko no ko" tagging and a couple references to the "daga otoko da" meme.

There's not a terrible lot of ambiguity in Japan about whether the writers meant to invoke the otoko no ko trope. Most of the dissent is coming from a Western perspective on gender and language. The idea that we should update tags to reflect this dissent isn't 100% without merit - we are a Western board, after all - but we should keep in mind that we are dealing with Japanese artists and all the conflicting cultural biases that entails.

As for the spoiler question - every time this happens, it seems to turn into an "everybody knows" deal at some point or another, so I don't know that we're going to have to keep a spoiler moratorium on the tags forever. In fact, even on non-spoiler images, the comments are already so full of discussion about this spoiler that it's difficult to hide that there's something going on. Might very well depend on how long-lasting the fandom is, though.

@SSJG: I can accept Lily being tagged as a girl by...

2018-11-23T23:36:06-05:00

I can accept Lily being tagged as a girl by default, if only because that's what she's referred to in the show and in things like promotional material, but any indication of her being male in a pic (bulge, penis, jokes about deadly body hair, etc) should result in a xboy tag. But I don't think newhalf is appropiate because Lily is a prepubescent child, and therefore she doesn't have any of the secondary sexual characteristics that distinguish a newhalf from an otoko no ko (breasts, basically). I don't think the matter of a character being trans or not is something tags should ever touch, the newhalf tag is merely a visual indicator of a character's body (female body and male genitals, but 9 times out of 10 otokonokos also have "female" bodies, so breasts make all difference).

As for necrophilia, I don't think it should be used. Necrophilia is only for actual dead bodies, or people who are obviously rotting zombies. The Franchouchou girls, even their zombie forms, don't look a lot like zombies.

@NWSiaCB: > KeliraTelian said: > > Kayako's pretty much...

2018-11-23T23:29:27-05:00

KeliraTelian said:

Kayako's pretty much laid out the best path forward.

Which is also what I was recommending...

KeliraTelian said:

Artists drawing Lily as a boy is unfortunate

No it isn't, it's freedom of expression. The same thing that lets Lily actually being a fairly realistically (you know, minus the zombie bit) transgender character is also something that lets someone else genderswap the transgender character in a fanwork.

Besides, tagging a character "1girl" on a different website the artist doesn't visit isn't showing them up, it's just going to confuse viewers and cause tagging wars.

KeliraTelian said:

just because a transgirl is naked doesn't make them not a transgirl. (same with trans boys, of course.)

No, artist intent is what makes them a transgirl, and artist intent can change from artist to artist.

KeliraTelian said:

We probably should discuss this series and the use of the necrophilia tag....

Considering as there are zero Zombie Land Saga images with necrophilia tagged, I'd say it's not much of an issue, but since I've already had this discussion, I'll go ahead and quote myself here:

The Legendary Yamada Tae bites people all the time without turning them into zombies, and all the zombies seem to have already been dead before being zombified, so it's probably OK, at least so far as the "turn into zombie because of this" goes.

Also, all the girls besides Tae-chan are basically just normal people in zombie bodies, so the only thing is that they, you know, look like zombies and probably also smell like rot. [*FREEZE!* *Sniff self* *Laugh nervously*] When in makeup, they also seem to pass completely as people, as nobody seems to notice even when in close contact that their bodies are in perpetual mid-rot.

Hence, I'm not sure it really does count as necrophilia, at least in the "reason why it's a crime" sense, as they're functionally alive and sentient in terms of ability to think, move, and consent to sex.

AdventZero said:

So, if she can technically move under her own power, has free will, can communicate her thoughts to others... She's technically not a corpse, right? Just a "person in perpetual mid-rot with random chances of limbs falling off" or something to that effect.

Yup. Totally not necrophilia.

Well, how DO you define a living person?

It used to be the case that someone was legally dead when their heart stopped beating... but then defibrillators were invented, and people could be brought back from legal "death", proving that it wasn't such a good definition (since, you know, death triggers inheritance among other legal factors). Meanwhile, if a pulse is all it takes to be alive, then brain dead people on mechanical life support are more person than the girl who can sing and dance and have a conversation with you. See Terri Shiavo. A person in cryogenic stasis is no longer displaying signs of life, but are considered to still be alive so long as they can be brought back to the normal state of living, but a once-dead, but now revived zombie is not? The zombie girls think like a living beings, eat like living beings, walk and talk like living beings and can blend into human society so long as their scars are covered up, so what actually defines "death" in a way that wouldn't exclude things we currently think of being as alive, or include things we think of as dead or even animal or inanimate?

The definition of "person" is more legally complicated than you may think.

You can act like it's simple if you don't analyze it, but that's just because it seems settled in all but a few edge cases for now. Laws about what counts as a living person with the rights of a person will have to reckon with issues never before encountered as science makes things possible, such as genetically modified animals with human-level intelligence or general artificial intelligences at human level or higher.

Furthermore, laws depend upon locality, and the intent of the law can matter a lot when it's something that's unprecedented. (British law is basically all precedent.) Most laws against "necrophilia" are actually against "disrespecting the dead" or "disturbing the dead", which would probably apply more to the whole act of their being zombified in the first place, not how you're interacting with them after they get up and start walking. Alternately, just about any interaction with them even before sex could count. Inversely, it may well be ruled that if someone walks like they're alive and talks like they're alive, they may as well count as alive.

Also, as previously mentioned, they're indistinguishable from human when in makeup. "I swear officer, she said she was human! Look at her! She totally looks like she could have a pulse!"

KeliraTelian said:

Trap is a transphobic slur.

Trap can be used as a transphobic slur, and has bled from referring almost exclusively to Otoko no Ko (and hence, having no difference in definition) to being used as a transphobic slur rather recently. "Gay" and "queer" were homophobic slurs, but aren't any longer because of reclaiming. Language is malleable and often dependent upon context.

KeliraTelian said:

I don't care? Like, really. I don't. At all? Since when does that matter? Also this is why wiki entries exist.

"I don't care how much it will be misused, cause arguments, and screw everything up" is a really poor way to get people onboard with an idea.

The tagging system is not for gender politics, it is for ease of use in finding specific images or types of images by a very, very large number of people, even those who do not read through every forum argument (which is everyone), and those who read every tag's wiki entry, especially if that entry was changed out from underneath them. One of the characters from Catherine is a fully transitioned transwoman but you don't mention her while mentioning Lily and Jun and distinguishing them from more standard "identify as a male" Otoko no Ko... presumably because you're not read up on every possible reference to transgendered characters in all of Japanese culture, which this "I am the final arbiter of who is or isn't trans enough" argument would require to have any degree of consistency when applied past these two arbitrary special exceptions.

Danbooru is inherently decentralized and functionally run (at least in terms of uploads and tagging) by a very large number of people who don't necessarily communicate with one another regularly. Clear, simple guidelines are necessary for generating the consensus such a place needs if this website will run at all. If a tag is repeatedly being misued by every person who comes across it even when it has a wiki article, then it's often time to just change the tag for being unclear.

If anything, it makes more sense to just change the wiki to say that the *girl and *boy tags refer to sex, not gender, (which is ambiguous at this point) since that's how they've been used up until now.

KeliraTelian said:

The actual issue is that people don't want to see a penis when they search for porn of girls, and again, I don't care if that bothers them.

Then you're not someone we should listen to when setting up the rules, because we'd be throwing a spanner directly into the works with that one, which would also mandate the creation of other tags or repurposing of existing tags.

KeliraTelian said:

I'm trying to keep this site as the one place like this on the internet that has managed to not be massively transphobic.

You're REEEEAAAALLY cherry-picking what you've been reading on Danbooru, then. Because believe me, there are people from all political stripes here, including people shouting incel slurs like "roastie" in recent memory.

@KeliraTelian: Kayako's pretty much laid out the best path...

2018-11-23T22:59:17-05:00

Kayako's pretty much laid out the best path forward. Artists drawing Lily as a boy is unfortunate but not something we can control, but like the image linked earlier, just because a transgirl is naked doesn't make them not a transgirl. (same with trans boys, of course.)

Oh, while we're here.

We probably should discuss this series and the use of the necrophilia tag....

>"Trap" is a neologism whose definition isn't even settled, so we could argue entirely different meanings and both be right...

Trap is a transphobic slur.

>Don't you see how that gets REALLY confusing for someone who isn't familiar with a given work?

I don't care? Like, really. I don't. At all? Since when does that matter? Also this is why wiki entries exist.

The actual issue is that people don't want to see a penis when they search for porn of girls, and again, I don't care if that bothers them.

>You're basically asking for exceptions to the rules for very specific characters because you happen to identify with them and want to deny any fanon reinterpretation of those characters, which is a massively difficult precedent to reconcile.

I'm trying to keep this site as the one place like this on the internet that has managed to not be massively transphobic.

@NWSiaCB: > KeliraTelian said: > > Trap and Otoko no Ko...

2018-11-23T22:59:03-05:00

KeliraTelian said:

Trap and Otoko no Ko are not identical concepts, they have some overlap but are very distinctly different.

"Trap" is a neologism whose definition isn't even settled, so we could argue entirely different meanings and both be right...

But regardless, that's far from the main point, you're effectively arguing that what users mean when they search for "1girl" should be different only SOME of the time, only for SOME characters that have been sufficiently identified as transgender as subjectively determined by you in the CANON of a work, only.

Don't you see how that gets REALLY confusing for someone who isn't familiar with a given work?

KeliraTelian said:

Regardless, Lily is not an Otoko no Ko. And stop bringing up Kyonko, they are a completely different situation and it is muddying the waters.

HOW are they different? Kyonko isn't canon, but we'll respect the fan artist intent of a fanon interpretation of a character, but if a fan artist wants to draw a fanon interpretation of the character you, personally made your mind up about, that doesn't count, because it's now "transphobic" if someone else wants to write fanfiction that you didn't approve?

Again, fanfiction and canon characters can be different people. Fanfiction ROUTINELY disregards canon when it needs to in order to tell the story they want to tell. (The canon also doesn't necessarily behave like a real person by any stretch, as per most Otoko no Ko examples.)

You're basically asking for exceptions to the rules for very specific characters because you happen to identify with them and want to deny any fanon reinterpretation of those characters, which is a massively difficult precedent to reconcile.

@Kayako: Alright, I hate these kinds of conversations,...

2018-11-23T22:52:44-05:00

Alright, I hate these kinds of conversations, but I feel like I should chime in here as a transperson who grew up with imageboard culture, which I guess lets me at least understand where both sides are coming from.

Lily is a girl, canonically. This is probably one of most forward representations of a trans person in anime I've ever seen, actually, which...surprised me greatly given Japan's track record. Typically such a person is presented much differently and a lot more emphasis put on the "haha x is really a boy" angle, mostly for fetish reasons. Unfortunately, these kinds of representations are new to this kind of media, so yes, we're going to need to re-evaluate how we handle it going forward.

Here's some of my personal views here:
- Lily should be tagged as a girl in all images in which she is not explicitly depicted otherwise (which *IS* possible; no doubt some artists are going to use this information to draw her from an "otoko no ko" angle, even if that isn't what she is meant to be). "Depicted otherwise" here should refer to artists who draw her with male clothing, as her "former self", or have explicitly tagged their own uploads with otoko no ko or some similar tag used for male-depicted-as-feminine persons.

- Lily is, by japan's standards, actually a newhalf, even though she does not have a developed chest. That's probably the most accurate tag we have to use for images in which she is depicted canonically (as a girl), but with her genitalia visible. I suggest we use this tag for such images, in conjunction with spoilers. Given that we already use this tag for some non-sexual images of transgender characters, it's the least offensive option while still maintaining a tag-what-you-see approach.

- Finally, I believe it's important to note that "tag what you see" exists as a policy specifically because the majority of our database is fanart, in which artists can and will completely ignore canon as it suits them, or images of one-off characters that have no canon information beyond what can be observed. We already make plenty of allowances for prioritizing canon over visual cues in cases where it would better serve the userbase to do so (such as, ironically, many cases of otoko no ko). As such, I don't think it's unreasonable to do so here, especially since we already have tags in place that we can use.

@KeliraTelian: Trap and Otoko no Ko are not identical...

2018-11-23T22:49:11-05:00

Trap and Otoko no Ko are not identical concepts, they have some overlap but are very distinctly different.

Regardless, Lily is not an Otoko no Ko. And stop bringing up Kyonko, they are a completely different situation and it is muddying the waters.