The era of battleships has long ended, all there is left is death from the skies.
Not exactly. Battleships still have their uses, its just that limited warfare post-WWII means there aren't many situations where you want to completely and utterly erase a coastal area off the map. Also note the disproportionate amount of battleships compared to the number of non-battleships. (Where are their own carriers? Light carriers? Seriously none?)
Not exactly. Battleships still have their uses, its just that limited warfare post-WWII means there aren't many situations where you want to completely and utterly erase a coastal area off the map. Also note the disproportionate amount of battleships compared to the number of non-battleships. (Where are their own carriers? Light carriers? Seriously none?)
Well, surface ships in general in WWII; other ships did play a role, but mainly protecting the carrier groups (although the submarines also played a large part). No CAP at all present in this picture, no wonder they are getting slaughtered.
I thought that there were some shinkaisei-kan ships in here, but then realized that it was just a ship girl being blown in half; there's also quite a bit of headshots. >_<
Judging from the commentary, they're ordered to do or die.
This is a literal suicide mission, not even a chance of harming the enemy force; who would in their right mind order this? Even Ten-Go had a semi-achievable objective.
Not exactly. Battleships still have their uses, its just that limited warfare post-WWII means there aren't many situations where you want to completely and utterly erase a coastal area off the map.
Ironically, from what I've heard in the circles of the Defense Industry (as in construction, design, and supply), that is exactly why they (American Defense designers) are supposedly (scratch that, I recall having seen some of them) drawing up plans/designs for the 'BB-100' 'Heavy Bombardment'/'Guided Missile' Battleship...
-Condensed for you skipping pleasure.-
Yeah. A 21st century battleship that is specifically designed to be the biggest, baddest thing to ever exist on the face of the earth and its waters. Armed with larger and more powerful (MJ wise) versions of the Rail Guns that the US Navy is (basically) currently working on that are (questionably) projected to have a range of roughly 400 miles housed in two (2) dual-gun 'retractable turrets', some 300+ VLS (Vertical Launch System) missile cells, launch tubes for 8 Trident II SLBMs (how that would work, considering that it wouldn't be a submarine, I'll likely never know), and some 30 HEL (High Energy Laser) mounts on each side (only 10 of each can engage targets on the opposite side due to positioning issues) as a close-in weapons systems equivalent (fixed to some kind of specialized variant of the Aegis Combat System) with 4 SeaRAM units as backup, and some kind of experimental 'sonar-like' anti-torpedo system (using sound waves to prematurely detonate a torpedo seems a little... out there to me)... all this while simultaneously boasting roughly 8ft of RHAe carbon/aluminum composite armor at the belt (everywhere else was less), 4 'new' 'B1*' (the '*' is there because no contractor has been tapped to build/design it for obvious reasons) Nuclear Reactors (actually, the B1* is merely a minor reworking of the A1B reactor for the Gerald R. Ford class Aircraft Carrier, which is why they didn't bother having a new one designed) powering 7 electric motor driven propellers, and the ability to house and launch stealth drones. Speaking of stealth, apparently it looks like a fishing boat on radar and sonar both (until it 'goes active' and pulls out its weapons systems, when the whole world would know it was there). Yeah, I think it may well qualify for that title, should the thing ever actually be built. ...Which is highly unlikely considering that the price tag for all of this is roughly ~$115 billion (USD) (almost 8 times as much as their new Aircraft Carrier...) and the technology level won't be even remotely there for another 5 years, at the least (although everything is already in its testing phase right now).
Incidentally, the designs that I have personally seen (there are many others, no doubt) seem to take after the Super Yamato (making it doubly ironic that this post is on a Kancolle pic, even though the Super Yamato isn't even in Kancolle yet)... at least in certain innovations of engineering that seemingly went into the design.
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The point of this 'little' venture into dreamland, you may ask? Something about wanting to be able to go to war with China and North Korea. *rolls eyes* Like we need a Battleship to do that, that's what Heavy Bombers and SSBNs are for. If this project ever got green lit you can expect to be able to find it here in short order.
This has been your not prescribed dose of grand_zero random pointless chatter, thank you for your cooperation and I hope you enjoy the pseudo-info-dump.
Ironically, from what I've heard in the circles of the Defense Industry (as in construction, design, and supply), that is exactly why they (American Defense designers) are supposedly (scratch that, I recall having seen some of them) drawing up plans/designs for the 'BB-100' 'Heavy Bombardment'/'Guided Missile' Battleship...
-Condensed for you skipping pleasure.-
Yeah. A 21st century battleship that is specifically designed to be the biggest, baddest thing to ever exist on the face of the earth and its waters. Armed with larger and more powerful (MJ wise) versions of the Rail Guns that the US Navy is (basically) currently working on that are (questionably) projected to have a range of roughly 400 miles housed in two (2) dual-gun 'retractable turrets', some 300+ VLS (Vertical Launch System) missile cells, launch tubes for 8 Trident II SLBMs (how that would work, considering that it wouldn't be a submarine, I'll likely never know), and some 30 HEL (High Energy Laser) mounts on each side (only 10 of each can engage targets on the opposite side due to positioning issues) as a close-in weapons systems equivalent (fixed to some kind of specialized variant of the Aegis Combat System) with 4 SeaRAM units as backup, and some kind of experimental 'sonar-like' anti-torpedo system (using sound waves to prematurely detonate a torpedo seems a little... out there to me)... all this while simultaneously boasting roughly 8ft of RHAe carbon/aluminum composite armor at the belt (everywhere else was less), 4 'new' 'B1*' (the '*' is there because no contractor has been tapped to build/design it for obvious reasons) Nuclear Reactors (actually, the B1* is merely a minor reworking of the A1B reactor for the Gerald R. Ford class Aircraft Carrier, which is why they didn't bother having a new one designed) powering 7 electric motor driven propellers, and the ability to house and launch stealth drones. Speaking of stealth, apparently it looks like a fishing boat on radar and sonar both (until it 'goes active' and pulls out its weapons systems, when the whole world would know it was there). Yeah, I think it may well qualify for that title, should the thing ever actually be built. ...Which is highly unlikely considering that the price tag for all of this is roughly ~$115 billion (USD) (almost 8 times as much as their new Aircraft Carrier...) and the technology level won't be even remotely there for another 5 years, at the least (although everything is already in its testing phase right now).
Incidentally, the designs that I have personally seen (there are many others, no doubt) seem to take after the Super Yamato (making it doubly ironic that this post is on a Kancolle pic, even though the Super Yamato isn't even in Kancolle yet)... at least in certain innovations of engineering that seemingly went into the design.
...
The point of this 'little' venture into dreamland, you may ask? Something about wanting to be able to go to war with China and North Korea. *rolls eyes* Like we need a Battleship to do that, that's what Heavy Bombers and SSBNs are for. If this project ever got green lit you can expect to be able to find it here in short order.
This has been your not prescribed dose of grand_zero random pointless chatter, thank you for your cooperation and I hope you enjoy the pseudo-info-dump.
In my opinion, the Battleship's role can turn into a long-range weapon thanks to advance weapon systems where they can pick off both land and sea targets, plus it's AA ability where no aircraft can even try to approach... (Unless they go in bee-swarm style) But in return they'll be the most costful in maintenance and surely only few will be build.
Putting more firepower on a single unit so you can have more firepower with less units may seem economical, in practice, there's not much money savings on doing it so (increased manning and maintenance costs).
While the N-Squared Law does lend support to the idea of outranging the enemy, the use of "quality vs. quantity"/"few to defeat many" still remains questionable (the Japanese tried both approaches against the US Navy without success).
But of course, these observations are mostly limited to the mathematical models, not taking into account many, many other factors.
There's also the old adage of don't buy what you can't afford to lose. If you aren't willing to risk your ship in the field, then why did you spend so much money on it in the first place. Plus, there's no good way to armor against a "backbreaker" torpedo hit. For reference, that's when a torpedo detonates directly under the ship. The explosion lifts the ship up, and then drops it down, using the weight of the ship against it, like so http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlpx4DMGzYI.
- Responses, condensed for your skipping pleasure. -
Re: T34/38
Yes, yes, very much so.
Or, at the least, that was the theory behind 'modern' (post-WW2) Battleship designs in the first place (that would be the Iowa-class modernizations).
To either bombard land targets or (basically) snipe enemy surface ships (submarine warfare is left to the smaller more agile ships, to this day [for reasons I don't understand]).
And, although yes, the Battleship's theoretical Anti-Air power is actually unrivaled among naval vessels, unfortunately a single 'Macross Missile Massacre' would likely still get through any modern anti-air defense systems (even the Phalanx/SeaRAM CIWS or Aegis Combat System equipped warships, since, well... zerg rush), which is why the design was calling for the lasers.
Apparently a 500kW version, actually... which theoretically makes it a viable anti-ship weapon as well (assuming that ~30 lasers could all achieve exposure at precisely the same spot).
(The US Navy is actually aiming for such lasers, on all of its warships by 2025.)
I have a feeling that you knew all of this already, so I apologize.
And, yes, from all estimations (both mine and others) even the US Navy with of all its buying power (the most of any navy in the world) could only 'strategically' manage to afford the upkeep of one digital age super-battleship.
Although, with certain technologies involved with top of the line naval construction these days (which require much greater initial investment, already figured into the crazy design I spoke of [thus the price tag of over 100 billion USD]), maintenance isn't really that expensive (relatively speaking, even though it would still sink most first world countries).
Re: LucasHidemiKomori
Well, there would be counter arguments to your first point. Mainly that, theoretically speaking, each individual ship that you remove from the operation (naval campaign) frees up ~300 sailors and resources to direct towards your super ship.
However, the fact of the matter is that a super-battleship such as this one should be a part of a Battleship escort group (itself likely on a carrier escort mission, since who in their right mind would attack an aircraft carrier guarded by a battleship that can sink you outside the range of planes?) comprised of mostly destroyers... the very type of which that it would theoretically be a giant version of... ...yeah, I've been making the same efficiency argument myself. Apparently they think the would-be 'invincible' aspect makes it worth it. *rolls eyes* ... On the (slim) up side, the design would optimally only need a crew of roughly 1500 sailors, less than half that of an aircraft carrier (the other comparable flagship candidate), but in worst case scenario could theoretically 'fully' operate with as little as 30 people (until the electronics were knocked out, in which case mere movement would be difficult).
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Second point. The IJN's problem wasn't so much that they lacked in numbers, it was more that they were uncoordinated and didn't invest themselves into the right areas. Quite a few slightly wonky experimental projects there, I must say. Although, I love their Super Yamato plans, I admit (doesn't stop it from being silly, even from a pre-1940's standpoint).
That and our ships wound up ironically being better than theirs anyway (after our war machine got pumping) since we had more capital to throw around.
If you can't tell by now, I actually agree with you.
Re: PraiseVectron
First point. Very true. But I don't think that would be a problem considering the US Navy's historical hardheadedness when it comes to that type of thing. If there comes a chance to show off their macho, they will. Seriously, a certain middle-eastern nation complains about us having destroyers hanging around in 'their' waters (even though they were actually in our own allies' waters), so what do we do? Send in a 4.5 billion dollar Aircraft Carrier and flaunt it. I have no doubt that they would have no trouble sending a $100+ billion dollar floating city into very hot waters
Of course, they're likely never going to get anything as expensive as that thing to fly in congress.
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Second point. Yes, I know what a 'back breaker' (or if you're being silly, an 'American Suplex') torpedo is and what it does; while its effect is quite tremendous, there are in fact ways around it (as there is everything).
If the ship in question is designed to contain and redirect the force of the torpedo's explosion away from the primary mass of the ship, it would not only survive the hit, if it was heavy enough it wouldn't even feel it (metaphorically speaking that is. The crew would most certainly know that they had just gotten torpedo'ed).
In the case of the 'BB-100' design, one of its primary design features is its 'floating hull' ('floating' as in 'on air') design (also known as a 'floating keel' or sometimes [albeit rarely, even though it's the more accurate description] a 'continuous ring keel'). What this means is that its underbelly essentially resembles an upside down, long, rectangular bowl with the hollowed out part being pumped full of pressurized air (by built in pumps). Normally this is done for the sake of buoyancy and to counteract high displacement (varying levels of air can be pumped in at different pressurization levels to cheat the ship's draft), yet in the case of the BB-100 it also serves as the vent system for its Vertically Launched Missiles, including the Trident 2s. This only works because the interior of the 'bowl' is lined with electronically adjustable, extreme heat, reverse blast-valves (that stay closed until overpressure [relative to the pressurization level set for the bowl] hits them) piping out to the ship's surface (off the sides of the ship at an upwards angle, actually). In the same way, I believe, the ship could avert the damage of the torpedo.
Now, I'm not that good with physics, so I can't actually prove this or even give a decent explanation myself, but from what I remember from the explanation that I was given (yes, they had already thought of that issue), it was something along the lines of:
Since the torpedo is programed to detonate itself while underneath the keel of its target ship it naturally will either: A) Mistake the rim of the bowl for the keel (even though it would technically be right, except in this case right is wrong) and detonate underneath it, which renders its special qualities moot (as there's far too much counter weight) and the armor would defeat the damage; or B) Find its way under the bowl and detonate while inside the bubble. The resulting explosion would almost literally immediately over-pressurize the entire bowl (thanks to the already pressurized air), tripping all of the reverse blast-valves simultaneously, the resulting suction would then draw off most if not all of the force of the explosion, rending it ineffective. The whole ordeal would be over in less than a second leaving it with the valves reset and pressure stabilized, ready to repeat.
They claimed that the system had been successfully tested in scale experiments, but if there's anything that I've learned in my time in R&D, it's never trust 'scale' or any other type of 'non-practical' experiment without adequate real world data to back up your finds...
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...Of course, the other factor you'd have to consider is: would the torpedo actually be powerful enough to lift the ship? In the case of the BB-100, it's projected displacement is somewhere around 150,000 short tons (or more than double the displacement of both the Iowa-class [45,000 tons]... and the Yamato-class [73,000 tons]... and even the Super_Yamato-class [78,000-90,000 tons])... and that's just a 'vague but conservative estimate' (meaning that it would most likely be heavier).
Although it's still projected to manage 45 knots when opened up.
...
... I really think the design team is dreaming with this design, honestly. Next time they should get more sleep before going to their drawing boards, and not while at them.
This has been another dose of grand_zero mindless rambling. Please don't mind me too much. Thank you for your cooperation.
Midway was supposed to be a surprise attack, and not a suicide one. It was just that the American codebreakers managed to broke the Japanese codes and figured out an attack on Midway was happening so it became an American ambush instead.
Leyte Gulf was considered the Death of the Japanese Navy and was also the last time the Japanese navy sailed out in force so I assume this is what it is.
Ironically Leyte Gulf was the battle where the Japanese got it from all sides, Sibuyan Sea was pure American aircraft, Surigao Strait was American destroyers and battleships wrecking the Japanese, Cape Engaño was the last carrier battle, and Samar was three American destroyers and four escort carriers against the entire world.
The Japanese could have won Leyte Gulf if they didn't loss most of their main aircraft carriers during the Midway and the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot, which they could have countered the American carriers.
PETmegaman said:
Notice how most of the casualty came from DDs...
So this is pretty much like the Battle of Ormoc Bay.
Man, I see a lot of death and stuff in pics. I frequent s_zenith_lee's stuff for new works, the death and guro tags, I'm a yandere fan and I play a lot of violent games. I'm usually pretty cool with this stuff but for some reason this pic makes me extremely sad. It's absolutely beautiful but... wow... what a shitty deal for the Kancolle girls.
[...] and Samar was three American destroyers and four escort carriers against the entire world.
Well, three destroyers, four destroyer escorts and six escort carriers.
Most of the defenders weren't even proper fleet destroyers. USS Samuel B. Roberts was a destroyer escort (pretty much a long-endurance frigate) armed with what amounts to peashooters (5" guns) compared to the Yamato's 46cm main cannons. I think the best Taffy 3 could hope for was to raise enough ruckus to attract the main carrier strike force back to Samar. (Which, as history tells us, came late for the party.) If Taffy 3 hadn't managed to psyche Kurita bad enough as they had, the war could have gone on a bit longer and much, much bloodier.
The world wonders indeed.
Back on topic, though. I wouldn't really call this a battle of any scale. It's a massacre...
Well, three destroyers, four destroyer escorts and six escort carriers.
Most of the defenders weren't even proper fleet destroyers. USS Samuel B. Roberts was a destroyer escort (pretty much a long-endurance frigate) armed with what amounts to peashooters (5" guns) compared to the Yamato's 46cm main cannons. I think the best Taffy 3 could hope for was to raise enough ruckus to attract the main carrier strike force back to Samar. (Which, as history tells us, came late for the party.) If Taffy 3 hadn't managed to psyche Kurita bad enough as they had, the war could have gone on a bit longer and much, much bloodier.
The world wonders indeed.
Back on topic, though. I wouldn't really call this a battle of any scale. It's a massacre...
From this point on in the war, it is massacre for the Empire.