Comments on post #2869718

@rom_collector on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-30T10:47:04-04:00

Of course not, that's like saying it takes the exact same time and money to produce a hand drawn with 3DCG anime and a stick figure animation going through the same process. Quality AND detail requires time. The only reason you consider Kill la Kill or One Punch Man better is because you are nitpicking the best from the average on everything (also tastes are relative about what is better). Kemono Friends is not different. You already know One Punch Man was outsourced (yet another manga to anime adaptation), no wonder the story isn't made with the same mold. The only reason the majority of anime studios mass-produce is because they are covering a demand, a demand the consumer asks not mattering the quality. A demand that, if they don't cover it, someone else will and translates to loses to them. Guess who is at fault too?

You are all probably living at your parents home, still studying or living comfortably from a periodical paycheck with no involving in resource management. Its understandable you won't get what I am saying and even be looked like a capitalist pig. But if you by chance get there you will realize a decision won't appeal everyone and maybe you will commit mistakes, yet everything is for the sake of keeping the boat afloat. No one is conspiring inside to kill the golden egg goose and if they do they are fired.

If you consider to stop consuming Kadokawa products, I hope you also consider not consuming products like the "I'll own it all" Disney or the "I'll dirty control everything after 1983 crash" Nintendo. After all you don't like evil greedy corporations. But we all know people have not memory and sometimes (just sometimes) the same angry vocals forget everything once the product turned better than expected without its original producer.

@azurelorochi on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-30T07:22:09-04:00

rom_collector said:

stuffs

Problem is, as I said, many good products(passion projects or not) can be done regardless of time or money.

Animes, in particular are not games or movies. The difference in budget and time constraint between an indie game/movie to a AAA/Blockbuster can differ in literal thousands of times.

Animes, on the other hand, are hand drawn. Any animes, regardless of genres or stories, will need about the same amount of frames, and even the other parts like music, voicing, editing, doesn't cost all that different either. So by most case even if separating "extreme cases" like Kemono Friends or Fate series, most animes will have the same level of budget regardless of genre.

Yet despite that, you can see animes like Kill la Kill or One Punch Man that were produced on an average budget but still managed to blow up in both popularity and profits. So again, it doesn't necessarily cost more time or money to make a show that stands out.

So then, I ask you, why are the majority of anime studios still stick with mass-produced, uninspired harem, moe, fanservice, fujobait shows? Shows that they know very well won't top any sales list, shows that won't become anyone's favorite, shows that, by all chances, will be forgotten in 3 months exactly because by the time it finishes airing, there's already another mass-produced show ready to replace it next season as the forgettable, shallow harem, moe show.

The issue isn't that it cannot be done. The issue is that the industry are actively NOT TRYING to solve its own damn problem then pushes the blame on creators or consumers when their mass-produced garbages doesn't sell. It IS incompetent and petty.

As for the Konami case, I don't know the specifics of why they fired Kojima, so I won't sin them on that. But it is still extremely petty and unprofessional of them to play victim and act like a crybaby when neither Kojima nor the customer base agreed with their decision to make Metal Gear Survive.

@MMaestro on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-30T02:20:59-04:00

Playing devil's advocate only goes so far before it becomes outright ignorance, or worse, lying.

No one thanks Konami for anything because Kojima was the Executive Vice President of the Konami's video game division after DECADES of working there. The anime equivalent would be anime fans thanking Studio Ghibli for suddenly firing Hayao Miyazaki and retroactively stripped his name out of the credits of every movie he worked on.

@rom_collector on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-29T23:13:07-04:00

That's actually what I'm doing. And don't get me wrong, the way corporations work sicken me too. As everything in life anything can't be just black or white. People lie, yes even the author as culprit could play the victim role too (not saying this is the case). Decisions won't make everyone happy. Someone will complain it doesn't matter the result. And specially someone will take the worst decisions in order to get safe as many as possible (including themselves).

I couldn't care less for Kemono Friends but I do for Konami. You all will be saying "f*ck Konami" from now on, yet I will say "thank you for financing someone like Hideo Kojima for as long as you could support him and bringing us so many great games". And it wasn't just Kojima, we have people like Koji Igarashi, Akari Uchida, Akira Yamaoka among others that maybe couldn't made better without Konami's aid. Yet everything can't last forever and at some point they followed different paths.

@Mettan on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-29T13:12:46-04:00

I feel like rom collector is trying to play devil's advocate here.

It seems though that it's near-unanimously agreed here that the devil in question is entirely in the wrong.

@rom_collector on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-29T07:01:29-04:00

All I'm saying is better products require time, time you don't have when your company grows big enough and you still have to pay salaries from everyone there each month for as long as the project is frozen by "passion". Special mention to the investors that keep the company alive and want their money back. I wouldn't call those reasons petty. Thanks to them you got your "successful" anime aired, because any author alone don't have the resources to make it possible by themselves.

To me Kemono Friends is just like KanColle and Minecraft, a product successful by lucky timing. It reached the right people at the right time and became popular in the same way any Internet meme does. You said it yourself it wasn't the best anime either but low budgeted, generic and mass produced. Who was responsible to reach the right people? Kadokawa. Were anything other shadow yet another generic moe exploiting a permanent fetish (cute characters with animal parts), you all wouldn't be talking about Kemono Friends by now.

There are alternatives to the Konami route, just look at ZUN. He is the epitome of outsourcing and he has plenty of time to plan his next product too.

cijantung said:

fuck off this is why i fucking hates wageslaves

Try to say that the next time someone is stalling the production or the company won't have enough money to pay you or keep you into the staff. Either as an employer or a patron. I hope you like freelancing because the hobo path is the only other route available for you.

@cijantung on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-29T06:12:45-04:00

rom_collector sounds like corporate dick licker

"hurr its just how the whole business worlds works."

fuck off this is why i fucking hates wageslaves

@azurelorochi on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-29T02:35:06-04:00

rom_collector said:
stuffs

Again, not sure if I'm being unclear or what.

As said "better products makes more money", it's such an obvious thing, yet companies like Konami and Kadokawa are going out of their way to decrease their own product's quality for petty reasons, only to play victim when their ex-employees and the customer base turned against them.

And again, making things "better" doesn't always require money. Writing better stories doesn't require more money, hell look at Kemono Friends anime itself.

Its CG is literally the cheapest in anime history, its advertisement budget nonexistent, its OP and ED sequences sung by its own seiyuu cast of newbies, and its game cancelled even before the anime aired. By any logic, Kemono Friends would have been the biggest laughingstock of the whole industry.

Yet by having a unique and sincere story, a story that, mind you, is as complex as a kid's show, it became massively successful.

It is exactly because it came out in this era of mass-produced generic harem, moe, isekai and fujobait that cares absolutely nothing for trying to carve out it's own identity that Kemono Friends the anime stood out and shined through.

It is exactly why Kemono Friends the anime succeeded where the game failed. The game was simply another generic gacha waifu fighters in the sea of other generic gacha waifu fighter games, that's why it couldn't compete and died. So now you're saying it's a smart business decision to go back to being generic?

@MMaestro on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-29T00:00:04-04:00

BarefeetChaser said:

Yeah, and Kadogawa holds the copyright of Keroro Gunso, guess what may happen should Yoshizaki decide to fight back.
There is a long quote from AVGN accurately describes this situation.

Seriously, is Konami way the only way?

When high level management fucks things up? Yes. The Konami way is the only way.

Seriously, this is the nature of hyper-diverse-corporations. Konami got away with firing Kojima because Konami waved pachinko and sports club money in front of stockholders... and then stockholders instantly stopped giving a damn about the video games division and that Ko-some guy.

@Keough on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-28T20:46:31-04:00

BarefeetChaser said:

Konami fired Kojima, David Hayter went on camera and apologized for that.
Imagine how hard that will make you laugh, then know this: Konami didn't do this, Kadogawa however, did.

Konami : Surely nobody would try surpass our stupidity... Right?

Kadokawa: Hold my beer!

@Garrus on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-28T15:22:02-04:00

Is this at all related?

http://dailynewsonline.jp/article/1359354/

@BarefeetChaser on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-28T13:14:41-04:00

Rathurue said:

More news:
Apparently Kadokawa once again upped the ante of the blame game, now suggesting that the conflict started when Yoshizaki Mine, the IP creator, wanted to take back the direction from Tatsuki.

Forget settling down, these fucktards-shit-for-brains used radioactive sludge to put out the napalm fire.

Yeah, and Kadogawa holds the copyright of Keroro Gunso, guess what may happen should Yoshizaki decide to fight back.
There is a long quote from AVGN accurately describes this situation.

Seriously, is Konami way the only way?

@Saladofstones on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-28T10:19:46-04:00

My problem with that line of reasoning is that isn't the case that happened here, rather the opposite from all accounts. Kemono friends was made with next to no resources, and returned far more than the sum of its parts.

Its not like they haven't taken other projects on a loss, either. Kancolle, at least a couple of years ago, didn't make money off the game itself but instead the merchandising. There are ways to offset losses, especially if a particular brand is popular and exploitable.

I mean NGE toilest seats

@rom_collector on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-28T09:16:14-04:00

azurelorochi said:

What I'm saying is the desire to make money and passion are not exclusive, if someone makes art for the sake of wanting to make something spectacular, then yes he deserves the money that piece of art will give him. And yes, from the company's viewpoint, that should also make said artist a valuable business asset.

They are exclusive when the company grows so much the artist consumes more money than the artist itself could produce to the company (and that was Kojima's case). It's not only the artist who has to be paid but the whole corporate organization chart. You get to understand that only when you manage people and lots of families (not only the staff) depend from it.

The artist also depended a lot from the money of the company to bring their ideas big and wide, so I find a bit unfair consumers crusade a company that made possible a product to be developed and reach them. And we all know how this will end, as much as you all complain you will consume the product anyway with or without him, if not many others will fill the gap. It's not the first time it ever happened anywhere else. If it fails they will create a new one... or fill a bankrupt.

If you want quality keep it small enough to have plenty of time but big enough to be financed. There's a reason outsourcing is a thing in corporations and some indies could offer better products.

@Rathurue on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-28T07:10:19-04:00

More news:
Apparently Kadokawa once again upped the ante of the blame game, now suggesting that the conflict started when Yoshizaki Mine, the IP creator, wanted to take back the direction from Tatsuki.

Forget settling down, these fucktards-shit-for-brains used radioactive sludge to put out the napalm fire.

@azurelorochi on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-28T06:56:37-04:00

rom_collector said:
stuffs

What I'm saying isn't "boohoo evil companies killing art", I know everyone wants money, even the most passionate of artists needs money to keep a roof over their heads.

What I'm saying is the desire to make money and passion are not exclusive, if someone makes art for the sake of wanting to make something spectacular, then yes he deserves the money that piece of art will give him. And yes, from the company's viewpoint, that should also make said artist a valuable business asset.

"Better products make more money", that is something that should be goddamn so obvious even a 3 years old would understand, but companies, run by "professionals", mind you, would rather turn their products into bland, copypasted, uninspired, mass produced heaps of shit rather than allow creativity and uniqueness in their products.

And this is even after said creativity and uniqueness had already proved to be massively profitable to the company itself, so the talk of "risks" is just ludicrous.

@Garrus on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-27T22:02:22-04:00

Well, well. Look at what I found. A ready made way to send en masse letters to the companies involved with the Kemono Friends Project...

Shall we, gentlemen?

Spread it far, spread it wide.

@BarefeetChaser on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-27T21:40:42-04:00

Konami fired Kojima, David Hayter went on camera and apologized for that.
Imagine how hard that will make you laugh, then know this: Konami didn't do this, Kadogawa however, did.

@Garrus on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-27T17:29:18-04:00

Rathurue said:

It's Kusokawa. They're known to do that.
Also, related not-so-funny piece of fake news. and list of Kusokawa statement holes

No wonder Konosuba was so good. They were already even lower scum than Kazuma could ever hope to be.

Edit: Nice point made in the thread on reddit:

"If someone was smart, they post in Japanese how a large company is affecting Japanese culture abroad to the Japanese ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry (@meti_NIPPON), in Japanese of course.

Tweet as much as you want until you turn blue in the face about "Tanoshi" or "Tatsuki", but they don't care about foreign voices. Shame the company by the government publicly and force them to react instead of deflect -- the Japanese government is trying to push its culture through the "Cool Japan" initiative and Kadokawa is working against that."

@Rathurue on post #2869718 (jaguar and small-clawed otter (kemono friends and 1 more) drawn by iwahana)

2017-09-27T16:27:10-04:00

Krugger said:

I am curious what is the reasoning behind this, why did they think it would be a good idea?

It's Kusokawa. They're known to do that.
Also, related not-so-funny piece of fake news. and list of Kusokawa statement holes