Ushiromiya Lion spoilers

@MagicalAsparagus: > oecchi said: > > With Yasu/Sayo it's a bit...

2014-09-19T18:32:37-04:00

oecchi said:

With Yasu/Sayo it's a bit complicated, since the manga (that is, the recent chapters which have not been officially translated) gives very heavy implications that Sayo is a male child who was raised as a girl. For the record, "Sayo Yasuda" is Yasu's full name.

Yeah, I already figured as much, though we probably shouldn't alias it, spoilers and all.
The guys from the wikia defined his gender as "confirmed", I'm still waiting for their reply atm.

@evazion: I still say canon changes should have no effect...

2014-09-19T15:18:31-04:00

I still say canon changes should have no effect on old artwork. When an artist draws a character as androgynous it will always look androgynous. Existing art doesn't magically change from looking androgynous to looking male just because canon might have changed. Especially not just because some unknown guy on some random forum said a translation of unknown accuracy implied it (but didn't confirm it).

@oecchi: With Yasu/Sayo it's a bit complicated, since...

2014-09-19T13:28:53-04:00

With Yasu/Sayo it's a bit complicated, since the manga (that is, the recent chapters which have not been officially translated) gives very heavy implications that Sayo is a male child who was raised as a girl. For the record, "Sayo Yasuda" is Yasu's full name.

@Toks: > MagicalAsparagus said: > > Found a text...

2014-09-16T15:24:07-04:00

MagicalAsparagus said:

Found a text translation for Confession of the Golden Witch from 2014.05.08
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=5113165&postcount=34449
and also the thread after that post
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=5113165#post5113165
Well yeah, it's pretty heavily implied. What do you say, Toks?

I'm still not seeing the part where it's definitively stated that Yasu/Lion is male. Did I miss something?

I'm aware there are some implications that they're male (e.g. flat chest, Natsuhi in episode 5), but these are nothing new and it's still open to interpretation. I can think of arguments that counteract a number of the implications.

If you're thinking of the 'body that cannot have children' part, that doesn't tell us anything since genital injuries can happen to both males and females.

@MagicalAsparagus: Found a text translation for Confession of the...

2014-09-16T12:54:55-04:00

Found a text translation for Confession of the Golden Witch from 2014.05.08
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=5113165&postcount=34449
and also the thread after that post
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=5113165#post5113165
Well yeah, it's pretty heavily implied. What do you say, Toks?

@MagicalAsparagus: Also, take a look at...

2014-09-16T12:39:10-04:00

Also, take a look at http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Sayo_Yasuda/Image_Gallery.
>Sayo as she appears in the EP8 manga, horrified as she realizes that she is not truly female.
Maybe that's in the manga that hasn't been translated yet..

EDIT:
Yeah, look here http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Twilight_of_the_Golden_Witch - the plot part. Since Sayo and Yasu are two alternative versions of one person I guess it is safe to assume that they are both male, right?
I think I'll go look for the untranslated part meanwhile.

@MagicalAsparagus: Oh well, okay. In two days I'm correcting...

2014-09-16T11:26:21-04:00

Oh well, okay. In two days I'm correcting things if I receive no answer.

@Toks: From a dmail: > MagicalAsparagus said: > >...

2014-09-16T11:24:58-04:00

From a dmail:

MagicalAsparagus said:

Hey Toks, looks like I fucked up :D
I've read the last three published chapters of Umineko and there is really no confirmnation of Lion being male. I also wrote to that Anon33 guy on the wikia, but I'm not sure he'll answer me. I also can't google anything intelligible ;_;
Can I please leave Lion be for now and consider wikia a reliable source? Or maybe you could find something I overlooked..

I don't see any reason to keep the character tagged as male if we know that's not correct.

Wikia isn't a reliable source, I've had a number of experiences with people on various wikia.com wikis stating rumors as fact. And of course they never cite sources.

As for another source, I wouldn't know where to look. The original game doesn't reveal the gender. The official manga doesn't either. I've read some interviews with Ryukishi07, and while they revealed some interesting minor details not found elsewhere, the ones I've read don't even hint at the gender. What's left, the anime?

We could wait a couple days before untagging Lion as male in case this Anon33 guy actually provides a real source, but I don't expect that to happen.

@Toks: evazion, all your idea accomplishes is making...

2014-09-16T11:03:06-04:00

evazion, all your idea accomplishes is making it impossible for people to search for images of traps and crossdressing and whatnot. There's no reason to actively reduce search functionality by not tagging things.

@evazion: > If anything your approach would only succeed...

2014-09-16T07:39:50-04:00

If anything your approach would only succeed in causing these conflicts to occur a ton more frequently when users like you would try and tag things like post #1282265 as a girl, when the artist themselves tagged it as trap and cross dressing on pixiv.

But often we don't know what the artist says it is. We may not even know the artist at all. Or we know, but it's from some blog and the artist's comments are untranslated. Or it's on Pixiv, but the artist didn't tag it as trap, leaving it unclear instead. Or it was on Pixiv, but it's since been deleted. So in many cases we *already* have to tag based on tag-what-you-see rather than the artist's word.

*Not* tagging what you see makes tagging 1girl way more difficult. It means you can't safely tag random characters, even when they look obviously female, unless you know their backstory and you know the artist isn't claiming they're ~really~ male in moonrunes somewhere. It makes tagging thumbnails as 1girl via tag scripting impossible.

Take these two posts, for instance: one, two. Can you guess what they're tagged as?

The answer: post #708698 is tagged as 1girl but post #366502 is tagged as 1boy, despite the "boy" Tieria having bigger breasts! Were the original taggers correct? Both posts are deleted from Pixiv, so we can't say if we're basing it on the artist's word.

It would only succeed in making things worse, because the bulk of the Lion tags don't really give concretes on the character's gender, leaving it for people to guess what the character's gender is.

That's my whole point. When an artist deliberately draws a character as androgynous, that is precisely what we should tag them as. We shouldn't retroactively retag androgynous posts as male just because canon changed years *after* they were originally drawn.

@NWF_Renim: > evazion said: > > Ugh, this situation is a...

2014-09-16T03:52:00-04:00

evazion said:

Ugh, this situation is a perfect illustration of the problems caused by not tagging what you see. All this does is add spoilers to posts where none existed before.

This is only the second time this problem has cropped up at all on the forums, so it isn't some rampant issue that you're making it out to be to justify your approach for tagging. If anything your approach would only succeed in causing these conflicts to occur a ton more frequently when users like you would try and tag things like post #1282265 as a girl, when the artist themselves tagged it as trap and cross dressing on pixiv. When that happens you'll only succeed in creating more problems where none existed before, exactly the reverse of what you're claiming your approach would accomplish.

Also you claim this is a perfect illustration of something your approach would clear up, but that is downright untrue. It would only succeed in making things worse, because the bulk of the Lion tags don't really give concretes on the character's gender, leaving it for people to guess what the character's gender is. Some would tag it male and others would tag it female, because different people would view the character differently. It isn't so obvious as you're making it out to be.

@evazion: Ugh, this situation is a perfect illustration...

2014-09-16T02:37:54-04:00

Ugh, this situation is a perfect illustration of the problems caused by not tagging what you see. All this does is add spoilers to posts where none existed before.

@MagicalAsparagus: I'm reading the last chapters of manga atm,...

2014-09-16T01:49:24-04:00

I'm reading the last chapters of manga atm, hope I will find something. I don't think they could have edited the wiki just because of the male pronouns...

@Toks: So according to this guy on the wiki the manga...

2014-09-16T01:45:09-04:00

So according to this guy on the wiki the manga uses male pronouns to refer to Lion?

I'd prefer a better source if it's possible like what chapter in the manga this happens in so I can try to look it up. It seems a bit strange that the gender would be confirmed just like that since I got the impression that Ryukishi07 had no intention of stating it explicitly, just like with many of the other mysteries in the series.

@MagicalAsparagus: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Lion_Ushirom...

2014-09-16T01:29:50-04:00

http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Lion_Ushiromiya is this enough or do we need more evidence?

@MagicalAsparagus: > Toks said: > > The wikia you linked doesn't...

2014-09-16T01:26:26-04:00

Toks said:

The wikia you linked doesn't cite any sources or provide reasoning so it doesn't mean anything.

I believe it's the official manga. I'll go check once more. The wikia has been updated recently, Lion's gender was unidentified before there as well.

@evazion: > MagicalAsparagus said: > > No, since Lion is...

2014-09-16T01:22:12-04:00

MagicalAsparagus said:

No, since Lion is a boy as a given, we tag male Lion, that is, all the previously untagged or unspecified by artist himself, as boy, and visibly female or specified by artist as female as genderswap and girl.

And how do you know whether the artist specified the gender or not? Did you read the artist's commentary on all the posts you tagged? You couldn't have even if you wanted to, because for some posts the work has been deleted from Pixiv.

So how can you say the artist intended post #701108 or post #701128 or post #701595 to be definitively male and not simply androgynous when they were drawn *before* the reveal and we don't even have the original Pixiv tags or commentary?

If we're only tagging what we see it doesn't matter what the artist said on some Pixiv post deleted four years ago. It doesn't matter when a new episode comes out and changes everything. It just matters what the post looks like. It's simple.

So you mean that all the famous traps like Bridget, Watarase Jun or Naoe Riki should be retagged as girls unless the genitals are visible? That is what makes no sense, everyone knows they are male.

That's not what I said at all. I said tag them as trap when there are hints: they have boyish faces, flat chests, telltale crotch bulges, whatever. Half the time the penis is even out in the open. Usually there are clear indications when the character is a trap.

But when there is no hint whatsoever and the only way you could possibly know is background knowledge, I wouldn't tag it. How is it useful to tag post #1282265 as male when she has full breasts and looks 100% female? That's not what someone searching for males is looking for.

Where did you get that? Even the otoko_no_ko wiki here, brief as it is, states the opposite.

Common sense? If I'm searching otoko no ko I'm expecting to find girly boys, not full women.

@Toks: What source is there for Lion/Yasu being male?...

2014-09-16T01:19:39-04:00

What source is there for Lion/Yasu being male? As I remember it, it was made obvious in the game that the character's gender was being deliberately left open to interpretation, and there are arguments for both possibilities. If I really think about it there's probably more evidence in favor of male than female, but nothing definitive I can think of.

The wikia you linked doesn't cite any sources or provide reasoning so it doesn't mean anything.

evazion said:

I say tag the gender they appear to be in the post (which could vary from male to female to androgynous according to the artist's depiction). I shouldn't have to know the character's entire backstory to tag them correctly. We shouldn't have to retroactively retag characters based on later revelations in the plot either.

That's the whole point of tag what you see: you should be able to tag a post correctly just by looking at it.

Gender is one of the few exceptions to tag what you see.

@MagicalAsparagus: > evazion said: > > And what about pictures...

2014-09-16T00:05:56-04:00

evazion said:

And what about pictures drawn before a reveal? If an artist depicts a character as female are we supposed to tag them as male based on plot developments even the artist wasn't aware of? Or are we supposed to tag them as female if they were drawn before a plot reveal and male if they were drawn after? It's absurd. Tag-what-you-see avoids all this.

No, since Lion is a boy as a given, we tag male Lion, that is, all the previously untagged or unspecified by artist himself, as boy, and visibly female or specified by artist as female as genderswap and girl.
So you mean that all the famous traps like Bridget, Watarase Jun or Naoe Riki should be retagged as girls unless the genitals are visible? That is what makes no sense, everyone knows they are male.

evazion said:
A character who is depicted as 100% female with no hints otherwise is, by definition, not a trap.

Where did you get that? Even the otoko_no_ko wiki here, brief as it is, states the opposite.

@evazion: > NWF_Renim said: > > Gender is a background...

2014-09-15T23:47:18-04:00

NWF_Renim said:

Gender is a background knowledge thing.

Gender is visual. It's whatever the character is visually presented as, which can sometimes be ambiguous or androgynous. The character's physical sex is background knowledge, unless their genitals are visible.

1girl / 1boy tags should be based on presented gender, not sex. Doing otherwise means you can't safely tag characters as 1girl unless you know their full backstory to know they're not ~really~ male. That makes tagging correctly a lot more difficult.

Ignoring the background knowledge base for gender tags throws into the garbage the foundation for tags like reverse trap and trap/otoko no ko, so I'd be against the idea of basing gender tags only on visual information.

Otoko no ko can and should be tagged based on appearance. How else can we tag original characters? Why should named characters be treated any different than original characters?

There are usually visual hints the character is not "really" female, if it's not outright obvious. The hints are usually the whole point of the picture. When there is truly no hint whatsoever, then no, I don't think they should be tagged. A character who is depicted as 100% female with no hints otherwise is, by definition, not a trap.

As for tagging the gender of this character, I thought I remembered hearing from others that the character's gender was deliberately left ambiguous for most of the story, thus the character's gender would itself be a spoiler.

Spoilers are only a problem if you don't go by tag-what-you-see. If we're tagging strictly by appearance then we're not implying anything about the character's true sex.

And what about pictures drawn before a reveal? If an artist depicts a character as female are we supposed to tag them as male based on plot developments even the artist wasn't aware of? Or are we supposed to tag them as female if they were drawn before a plot reveal and male if they were drawn after? It's absurd. Tag-what-you-see avoids all this.