NWSiaCB said:

See this scat guro image that has already been approved by three separate people, including the person who started this "we need to fire some of these approvers" stuff in the first place. Apparently, even when something gets negative scores and multiple flags, it doesn't matter, so long as there's now a legion of people ready to re-approve it who don't give a damn about Danbooru never accepting scat porn or extreme guro.

That's fine that you're criticizing me, but your example isn't representative of some of the claims you're making. It doesn't have the negative score that you're implying it has and it isn't scat porn, it isn't porn. It is extreme guro though and it does depict scat, and I will not deny that, but I do not arbitrarily approve content like that without taking into consideration on if I consider it (from my perspective) drawn well and subject relevant (is it done in an anime-style, is it not a photo, etc). The rules aren't set in stone as you've frequently treated them.

My goal when it comes to approving images is if I feel the art is good I'll approve it, though I do recognize that I've felt my interpretation of good art has a lower threshold than others (perhaps worded in that I approve what I consider good art, where many others focus on great art). If that results in me losing approval rights later, well that's what will happen. I do try and judge an image by itself without trying to let the subject matter depicted impact my approval or rejection of an image, so long as the image is anime-related or at least semi-relevant (drawings of spaceships or vehicles). To encourage that I try and avoid using my blacklist altogether, so as to not avoid content, but I do have on artist on that list. Probably to my advantage I don't really hate any series, and spoilers have never bugged me. Perhaps ironically given the previous paragraph, I do get queasy looking at extreme guro and scat, and kind of have to sit out for a few minutes to let the feeling subside after going over such images.

NWF_Renim said:

The rules aren't set in stone as you've frequently treated them.

That's a big part of the problem here, I think. There's a bullet point in the Terms of Service we all have to agree to that specifically says that under the possible penalty of losing your account, do not post depictions of extreme mutilations. If something that clear-cut isn't going to be enforced, there's no reason to have rules or even approvers, because everyone's going to find their own way to interpret them to fit their personal wants and weasel by anything they feel like.

ShadowbladeEdge said:

To jump on the defensive bandwagon I approve what I feel is good art, flat out. I mean I hate Vocaloid, like a lot. That hasn't stopped me from approving or uploading a good chunk of Vocaloid stuff. Skimming through my approvals for more stuff I don't care about or actively dislike I see; Youkai Watch, IdolM@ster, Inazuma Eleven, Touken Ranbu, dudes getting rude, Dead or Alive, ect. Take all that for what you think it's worth I suppose.

I have the same feeling towards anything tagged as rei no himo and any Kancolle stuff except Hoppo or the Admirals but I usually upload them because I think the art is good and I know someone other than NOOU will approve of it.

NWF_Renim said:

That's fine that you're criticizing me, but your example isn't representative of some of the claims you're making. It doesn't have the negative score that you're implying it has and it isn't scat porn, it isn't porn. It is extreme guro though and it does depict scat, and I will not deny that, but I do not arbitrarily approve content like that without taking into consideration on if I consider it (from my perspective) drawn well and subject relevant (is it done in an anime-style, is it not a photo, etc). The rules aren't set in stone as you've frequently treated them.

My goal when it comes to approving images is if I feel the art is good I'll approve it, though I do recognize that I've felt my interpretation of good art has a lower threshold than others (perhaps worded in that I approve what I consider good art, where many others focus on great art). If that results in me losing approval rights later, well that's what will happen. I do try and judge an image by itself without trying to let the subject matter depicted impact my approval or rejection of an image, so long as the image is anime-related or at least semi-relevant (drawings of spaceships or vehicles). To encourage that I try and avoid using my blacklist altogether, so as to not avoid content, but I do have on artist on that list. Probably to my advantage I don't really hate any series, and spoilers have never bugged me. Perhaps ironically given the previous paragraph, I do get queasy looking at extreme guro and scat, and kind of have to sit out for a few minutes to let the feeling subside after going over such images.

It had a negative score (-2) before. Since it's gotten attention, the score has become volatile, based upon who, exactly, is viewing it at the moment. (Which, again, is a reason why score isn't a good indicator...)

Anyway, that's not an attack on you. It's an attack on the system that makes it incredibly easy to upload things, yet nearly impossible to delete them.

Basically, this system means that, to get something deleted, you have to have more people in a co-ordinated tag-team performing focused flagging after every wave of approvers re-approves something to gradually wear them down... while at the same time, those approvers can approve thousands of scat images in a day. And it's only by happenstance that I even saw that one because it was in the comments page after the uploader complained about how it kept getting flagged. The people who actively look for that sort of stuff are going to be inherently more likely to find and upvote/approve it.

As long as there's people approving scat images faster than they can be taken down, there's going to be people who come here for the scat/furry/guro/ultra-deformed breasts porn Danbooru has now apparently said is OK. Those people are then going to up-vote the score, and get more of their own to be janitors/mods.

This is an Eternal September situation. (Or a ring species of users and janitors, to use the argument linked in the previous thread...) You are putting different communities/tastes/copyright fanbases in direct competition with one another, with the losers finding they can't have a place in the website anymore, and the winners changing the de facto rules to whatever suits their own fetish. (This isn't some far off or new threat, either, as Touhou pretty clearly Eternal Septembered the site within about a year of its operation...)

Which is the point: How "set in stone" the rules are depends entirely upon the willingness of the mods to actually enforce them. We're only in this situation because people weren't enforcing the rules against the likes of this uploader of absolutely any random scribble he can find and janitor whose approvals are so lax they have caused several years of turmoil on these forums.

OOZ662 said:

That's a big part of the problem here, I think. There's a bullet point in the Terms of Service we all have to agree to that specifically says that under the possible penalty of losing your account, do not post depictions of extreme mutilations. If something that clear-cut isn't going to be enforced, there's no reason to have rules or even approvers, because everyone's going to find their own way to interpret them to fit their personal wants and weasel by anything they feel like.

Quality of something was always the primary focus on determining if something should or shouldn't be approved. The ToS from my perspective simply laid out what wasn't generally relevant to the site and what generally fell afoul of poor quality images. Things like furry, nude filters, and grotesque were things that typically had a lot of poor quality images associated with it. You'd get a lot of western style furry art, poorly done nude filters, and scribbled together drawings of gore and sex. There of course was also the furry and guro communities, which were from my understanding also problematic. Of course furry and guro were also uploaded a lot for shock value, but then again so are things that aren't banned either, say like toddlercon art.

I really don't see how they can all truly be made into hard rules without either banning content that shouldn't be banned or making the rules into jumbles of legal speak that either ends up full of loopholes or still leaving too much for interpretation and leading us back into problems all over again.

NWSiaCB said:

Basically, this system means that, to get something deleted, you have to have more people in a co-ordinated tag-team performing focused flagging after every wave of approvers re-approves something to gradually wear them down...

Or maybe if several people approve an image, that means it should stay.

Danbooru never accepting scat porn or extreme guro.

Your vision of Danbooru doesn't match reality:
scat
guro

But I already explained that before: forum #101184.

OOZ662 said:

That's a big part of the problem here, I think. There's a bullet point in the Terms of Service we all have to agree to that specifically says that under the possible penalty of losing your account, do not post depictions of extreme mutilations. If something that clear-cut isn't going to be enforced[...]

Is it so clear-cut that you'd be for nuking all the TOS violating tags? Well, if anyone's up for ironclad rules, I'd suggest providing examples of "extreme guro", otherwise it's too subjective. The guro posts flagged right now (post #2065025, post #2065026, post #2065028) aren't any more extreme than post #1866693. Or maybe now that it's called to attention, people are going to start chain-flagging as109's stuff now.

NWF_Renim said:

The ToS from my perspective simply laid out what wasn't generally relevant to the site and what generally fell afoul of poor quality images. Things like furry, nude filters, and grotesque were things that typically had a lot of poor quality images associated with it. You'd get a lot of western style furry art, poorly done nude filters, and scribbled together drawings of gore and sex. There of course was also the furry and guro communities, which were from my understanding also problematic. Of course furry and guro were also uploaded a lot for shock value, but then again so are things that aren't banned either, say like toddlercon art.

They were put in place to stop those sorts of things, and when they did arguably stop, they then should be relaxed again so that the problems can come back?

Either way, if they're to be guidelines instead of rules, they should be in howto:upload rather than the document that defines whether you're going to be banned or not under the headings "Rules," "Prohibited Content," and "you may not upload."

Dbx said:
Is it so clear-cut that you'd be for nuking all the TOS violating tags?

Yes, I would. And I would encourage bringing up, discussing, and then properly acting upon (this is the hard part; changes are rarely made to the operations of this site: it's like we're in a golden age right now) proposed changes to the rules. Personally, I'd get rid of the one about manga because it's just silly (I assume it's part of trying to dodge copyright responsibility) and more clearly state the Furry rule to differentiate directly between colored skin/kemonomimi and full-body furry.

"Extreme mutilation, extreme bodily distension" seems to me like an odd one to argue about; it has a dictionary definition to it and I'd find it much harder to point out a questionable edge case than to say an image specifically is or isn't fitting to it.

Dbx said:

Or maybe if several people approve an image, that means it should stay.

Again, this whole thing was started as a problem with at least one individual who will approve almost literally anything... and now, we apparently have more.

Dbx said:
Your vision of Danbooru doesn't match reality:
scat
guro

Yes, thank you for illustrating my point. Danbooru is almost literally being covered in shit art right now because of this laxness.

Dbx said:
Is it so clear-cut that you'd be for nuking all the TOS violating tags? Well, if anyone's up for ironclad rules, I'd suggest providing examples of "extreme guro", otherwise it's too subjective. The guro posts flagged right now (post #2065025, post #2065026, post #2065028) aren't any more extreme than post #1866693. Or maybe now that it's called to attention, people are going to start chain-flagging as109's stuff now.

That last one has been flagged in the past, and sparked a minor war, itself. Regardless, isn't that a "You shouldn't delete this image, because others are worse" argument? Remember when janitors and mods used that because Danbooru still had standards?

Basically, yes, all those posts should be nuked to help start to correct this problem. For that matter, nameo (judgemasterkou) needs nuking, as well.

NWSiaCB said:

For that matter, nameo (judgemasterkou) needs nuking, as well.

I don't even know why some people still upload most of his stuff when they look so rushed and unfinished.

As far as I understand the rules, nameo is not at the point where he would need nuking on principle.

Additionally, I thought the big breats rule applied to situations where it was at the point of inflation porn. Nameo draws girls with extremely large breasts that can certainly be unattractive, but not grotesque in all cases.

In cases like nameo or the post that's been in a deletion/approval war, thats why we need admins to step in and decide whats acceptable.

Also, as far as scat and guro, its been rules since forever and there are still images under that tag that are uploaded and approved. The point is when they are either so grotesque as to overcome its possible artistic merit, or because they are shittly drawn, but with prolific artists and dedicated fans that will overrepresent it.

None of this shit has anything to do with the upcoming changes make a new thread please.

Log said:

None of this shit has anything to do with the upcoming changes

That's incorrect.
It has to do with that two of the fresh, 3-week approvers went to approve a sketchy, ToS-breaking image, which is a direct result of these 'upcoming' changes. And that is the reason for this entire branch of discussion to be sparked and it shows 'new blood' isn't all that flawless as it's made to be.

I do agree though, that it's material for another thread by now.

OOZ662 said:

Yes, I would. And I would encourage bringing up, discussing, and then properly acting upon (this is the hard part; changes are rarely made to the operations of this site: it's like we're in a golden age right now) proposed changes to the rules. Personally, I'd get rid of the one about manga because it's just silly (I assume it's part of trying to dodge copyright responsibility) and more clearly state the Furry rule to differentiate directly between colored skin/kemonomimi and full-body furry.

Rather disingenuous to support nuking after changing the TOS. I don't think your views are in the best interests of this site.
watermark order:score
*_artifacts order:score
gigantic_* order:score
furry order:score
guro order:score

"Extreme mutilation, extreme bodily distension" seems to me like an odd one to argue about; it has a dictionary definition to it and I'd find it much harder to point out a questionable edge case than to say an image specifically is or isn't fitting to it.

This dictionary definition sure would've been useful in any of the previous threads trying to iron out the ambiguities of guro.

NWSiaCB said:

Regardless, isn't that a "You shouldn't delete this image, because others are worse" argument?

It should've been clear it was about better defining extreme mutilation, especially if it's going to be auto-deleted.

-moved-

Please move your posts in regards to the ToS to topic #11877.

albert said:

New blood is required. It's been around 2 years since the last batch of janitors was recruited.

It may be worth discussing whether approval limits are a good idea. Should approvers be limited to 100 approvals a month? I think once a broader base of active janitors is established it may be tenable.

No need for that. Rather, I think you should be more careful about aggressively (you really like this word, don't you?) recruiting new approvers - too much "new blood" may result in a transfusion-associated circulatory overload.

Borrator said:

And then have half the good content on most unpopular copyrights completely forgotten as it doesn't specifically interest any janitor, forcing people to also check Pixiv lest they miss several images they would like to see, essentially making Danbooru next to useless. Well, at least it would be a step away from being Pixiv re-host with tags

While I do agree that he occasionally approves good images (heck, he even saved a couple of my own uploads), many of his approvals are still very poor. Yet, apparently, that doesn't stop some people from seeing him as some sort of Danbooru's Robin Hood...

UPDATE: Alright, maybe he is one, after all...

Yeah... We do new right people who had the eye to approve images.

D'Eye said:

UPDATE: Alright, maybe he is one, after all...

To be honest? The art's fine on that image. The resolution and meme presentation are the primary reasons I wouldn't approve it.