Tag implication: lancer_artoria -> saber

@albert: The bulk update request #558 has been approved.

2016-02-05T23:34:48-05:00

The bulk update request #558 has been approved.

@NWF_Renim: mass update lancer_artoria ->...

2016-02-04T14:13:07-05:00

mass update lancer_artoria -> artoria_pendragon_alter_(fate/grand_order)
create implication artoria_pendragon_alter_(fate/grand_order) -> saber_alter
create implication heroine_x -> saber

Link to request

@albert: I mean the latter, and that's what I assume the...

2016-01-23T03:08:47-05:00

I mean the latter, and that's what I assume the consensus was.

@NWF_Renim: @albert So does that mean we can't use their...

2016-01-23T02:05:11-05:00

@albert

So does that mean we can't use their real names for their spinoff versions of original F/SN characters or can we? Essentially are you saying it has to be like lancer_alter_(fate/grand_order) -> saber_alter until we finish discussions on whether to use their real names or not for the originals, or can we go ahead and use like Artoria_Pendragon_Alter_(fate/grand_order) -> saber_alter. We're already doing this with Lancer/Cu Chulainn having Cu_Chulainn_(fate/grand_order) implicate Lancer.

@albert: I suggest ignoring the real names for the...

2016-01-23T01:53:02-05:00

I suggest ignoring the real names for the original game (Fate/stay night) since they're so common and use the real names for the spinoffs. Whether the real names should be used for the original characters can be a separate discussion since that's an order of magnitude more work to fix but let's tackle what can be feasibly done first.

@albert: The tag implication lancer_artoria -> saber has...

2016-01-23T01:45:45-05:00

The tag implication lancer_artoria -> saber has been rejected.

@WatcherCCG: Hm, would a mass tag aliasing automatically...

2016-01-22T00:26:18-05:00

Hm, would a mass tag aliasing automatically convert the tags over to a new one? That seems like it might streamline the process a bit, but I freely confess I do not fully understand the tagging system the way you mods probably do.

@reese: I agree with NWF Renim. The Fate franchise is...

2016-01-21T01:20:41-05:00

I agree with NWF Renim. The Fate franchise is only getting bigger with the it's latest incarnation being a free-to-play mobile game, it's very easy to introduce more servants and characters at a faster rate than a VN, anime, or manga could.

The original Fate VN will be twelve years old at the end of the month and the anime debuted ten years ago. There has to be a point where the identities of the characters from the original series is no longer a spoiler and becomes common knowledge within the franchise. With Fate/Grand Order outright giving names and some biographical information, it appears as though that time is quickly approaching.

@NWF_Renim: > Toks said: > > The name of the tag excalibur...

2016-01-20T23:18:41-05:00

Toks said:

The name of the tag excalibur is sort of a spoiler, but since it's a general tag it's not as obvious as actually putting a spoiler in the name of the character herself. Just because there's currently some potential for someone to get spoiled by tags doesn't mean we should make it worse.

We're not making it worse though, her name itself isn't a spoiler because it doesn't even reveal who she is in Legend and why that's important (ie King Arthur). That's why it's less of a spoiler than the Excalibur or Caliburn tags that point out exactly who she is supposed to be. It's even that way in the series, revealing Excalibur was the dead give away on who she was supposed to be. The fact that those unique swords are general tags and buried amongst other general tags is ignoring that they're a big spoiler to what Legendary figure she is. Also the fact that they're general tags should be considered that we're doing something wrong because they're unique objects with a very specific shape (which is another can of worms and a topic I had brought up on github, so I won't really go further into that).

The fact also still stands though that the franchise is no longer even attempting to conceal any of these characters any more (The farthest they go is only remotely try and hide Archer by referring to him as simply "Emiya"), and as long as they keep expanding what classes characters can be, then retaining the class as their name is going to be nothing more than a headache for future tagging of things added to this franchise. We already have oddities such as anything under Cu Chulainn (fate/grand order) as it also gets tagged Lancer or single one-offs like these Artoria Alter depictions like post #2217891, as that specific form of her is a Rider class under the game.

The Fate franchise is only getting bigger, using the current framework will simply make things harder in the long run, not easier.

edit: Here are the characters so far with multiple classes (can just ignore the costume ones due to lack of physical differences if you wish, but I'm sure the unique forms will only grow given many of the characters always could fit different classes):

Artoria Pendragon (ie Saber)

Unique forms: Saber class (various), Lancer class
Costume forms: Rider class, Assassin class

Cu Chulainn (ie Lancer)

Unique forms: Lancer class, Caster class

Gilles de Rais (ie Caster (fate/Zero))

Unique forms: Saber class, Caster class

Elizabeth Bathory (ie Lancer (fate/extra ccc))

Unique forms: Lancer class
Costume forms: Caster Class

Tamamo no Mae (ie Caster (fate/extra))

Unique forms: Caster Class, Berserker Class

@Toks: > NWF_Renim said: > > Saber's real name really...

2016-01-20T20:48:12-05:00

NWF_Renim said:

Saber's real name really is hardly a spoiler though, as while similar it isn't actually Arthur Pendragon. It's only as much as, if not less than, a spoiler than having her with the swords caliburn or excalibur. Even then out of 2k+ such posts, only 14 of them have the spoilers tag. If her relationship with the swords isn't a spoiler, then her similar name to Arthur isn't a spoiler.

The name of the tag excalibur is sort of a spoiler, but since it's a general tag it's not as obvious as actually putting a spoiler in the name of the character herself. Just because there's currently some potential for someone to get spoiled by tags doesn't mean we should make it worse.

@NWF_Renim: > Toks said: > > I don't have a problem with...

2016-01-20T18:14:56-05:00

Toks said:

I don't have a problem with the characters whose name gets revealed very soon after the character is introduced like Cú Chulainn. But ones like Saber, Archer, Rider, whose names are a mystery for a noteworthy length of time, we shouldn't use.

Saber's real name really is hardly a spoiler though, as while similar it isn't actually Arthur Pendragon. It's only as much as, if not less than, a spoiler than having her with the swords caliburn or excalibur. Even then out of 2k+ such posts, only 14 of them have the spoilers tag. If her relationship with the swords isn't a spoiler, then her similar name to Arthur isn't a spoiler.

@WatcherCCG: I think the major problem is that barring...

2016-01-20T17:01:01-05:00

I think the major problem is that barring Archer, just about everyone's had their name spoiled at this point, so it falls into It Was His Sled territory. With that in mind, it would be simpler to just switch to proper names instead of classes. The only question to me is if it's simple enough a task to do, since I imagine some poor mod will have to sort through that mess.

@Toks: > NWF_Renim said: > > Honestly how much of a...

2016-01-20T14:19:33-05:00

NWF_Renim said:

Honestly how much of a spoiler is it really? In my opinion it doesn't even really reveal who the character is supposed to be if we used Artoria Pendragon, and many of the characters their real names aren't even spoilers, like Lancer's name isn't even a spoiler. It's pretty much revealed up front. There are also characters where their names are already out, but then we go back and try and cover it up as if somehow it already being known who the character is can be reversed.

edit-minor name edit.

I don't have a problem with the characters whose name gets revealed very soon after the character is introduced like Cú Chulainn. But ones like Saber, Archer, Rider, whose names are a mystery for a noteworthy length of time, we shouldn't use.

It would probably be good to qualify their class with the game their from though, like rider_(fate/stay_night) to distinguish her from other riders.

@Aristocrat: +1 for reversing the spoiler naming policy on...

2016-01-20T14:08:52-05:00

+1 for reversing the spoiler naming policy on Fate characters. At this point it is practically unavoidable and makes it significantly less difficult to properly tag the images in a consistent manner.

@hurrghhurrgh: > NWF_Renim said: > > Honestly how much of a...

2016-01-20T12:06:26-05:00

NWF_Renim said:

Honestly how much of a spoiler is it really? In my opinion it doesn't even really reveal who the character is supposed to be if we used Arturia Pendragon, and many of the characters their real names aren't even spoilers, like Lancer's name isn't even a spoiler. It's pretty much revealed up front. There are also characters where their names are already out, but then we go back and try and cover it up as if somehow it already being known who the character is can be reversed.

With the advent of fate/grand_order the series itself doesn't try to hide any of them either. Which is how we ended up with tags like cu_chulainn_(fate/grand_order) for Lancer's caster form from that game.

If we were worried about spoilers I think archer and berserker_(fate/zero) are the only ones that would actually be considered such, so those two could be left unchanged if it was a concern.

@NWF_Renim: > Toks said: > > I really don't see why we...

2016-01-20T11:44:00-05:00

Toks said:

I really don't see why we should put spoilers right in the tag name.

Honestly how much of a spoiler is it really? In my opinion it doesn't even really reveal who the character is supposed to be if we used Artoria Pendragon, and many of the characters their real names aren't even spoilers, like Lancer's name isn't even a spoiler. It's pretty much revealed up front. There are also characters where their names are already out, but then we go back and try and cover it up as if somehow it already being known who the character is can be reversed.

edit-minor name edit.

@Toks: I really don't see why we should put spoilers...

2016-01-20T11:36:07-05:00

I really don't see why we should put spoilers right in the tag name.

@WatcherCCG: I'm just kind of surprised there's no simple...

2016-01-20T06:58:38-05:00

I'm just kind of surprised there's no simple way to change the name of a tag. Everything here always seems almost streamlined.

@Log: Not really? unless there's only one of each...

2016-01-20T04:20:04-05:00

Not really? unless there's only one of each class in each subseries in which case you could probably cobble together a ton of mass edit requests.

edit: We could hypothetically get away with only editing some of them but that would just bring confusion.

@WatcherCCG: There's no way to automate that? I'm a little...

2016-01-20T03:46:20-05:00

There's no way to automate that? I'm a little sorry I opened this can of worms if that's the case.