Characters with multiple appearances

@EB: > Sal.N said: > > 4) If you want to find posts...

2017-03-26T00:05:38-04:00

Sal.N said:

4) If you want to find posts that contain both identities of a character, dual persona exists.

Dual persona is not going to apply to every post where both identities are represented. post #2561431 for instance is a cosplay so that is already missed just using a kishibe_souta dual_persona search. Even if the dual persona tag caught everything, you would have to do two separate searches if just wanted to search the identity used as the umbrella tag.

Not as much of a practical issue for so few posts in this case, but you also have characters that get hundreds of posts for each form. Take Ro-500 and U-511, for instance. Searching things with them is much easier as completely separate tags than the royal mess that would have resulted from using one (especially the base form U-511, since she's rarer) as an umbrella tag. An umbrella search can very simply be emulated as is: ~u-511_(kantai_collection) ~ro-500_(kantai_collection).

@Sal.N: I vote for 1, aka "always have an umbrella tag...

2017-03-25T21:42:22-04:00

I vote for 1, aka "always have an umbrella tag for a character, unless the alternate identity is a spoiler."

1) It's been our long time practice, see: precure where every Cure form must be tagged with their human name as well.

2) It's sane for subscribers to get all the images of a character in one tag. Particularly saner for copyrights where there are hundreds of characters, or where characters normally have more than 3 identities.

3) We don't implicate alternate identity -> umbrella identity. I thought jxh had made this clear years ago, similar to why we don't implicate character -> copyright (read: too much to do). So the argument of "complicated implications" is null.

4) If you want to find posts that contain both identities of a character, dual persona exists.

We can create a separate tag for the regular identity if everyone wants, but the existence of an umbrella tag is indispensable. This is helpful for tag gardeners, subscribers, and searchers alike.

@Astolfo: If my opinion means anything, I'd say #2 is the...

2017-02-08T16:45:42-05:00

If my opinion means anything, I'd say #2 is the best overall. #5 could work as well.

@BrokenEagle98: Can we get some kind of ruling on this...?...

2017-02-08T12:04:48-05:00

Can we get some kind of ruling on this...? We've had 10 days of deliberation, and both sides are pretty polarized, and I don't see either side ever convincing the other through persuasion that their side is right.

If we're going to go by vote, then that's already been settled as the way I counted it, it's 1 for #1 (Setsunator) and 6 for #2 (BrokenEagle98, Jarlath, EB, Kuuderes Shadow, Rignak, Flandre5carlet). All it needs now is an official certification of the results, i.e. an Admin proclaiming "Yea verily it is so".

The ruling could also be some sort of "great compromise", where both sides get some of what they want and some of what they don't want yet could live with. NWF_Renim already offered one such solution in forum #126234, which is described in forum #126242 as scheme #5.

Or, this issue could just be punted... <__<

Edit:

- (2017-02-08) Updated w/Flandre5carlet's comment below.

@user_441999: > Setsunator said: > > Because one is the...

2017-02-08T04:20:59-05:00

Setsunator said:

Because one is the characters actual name, the other one is just telling you what the character is currently looking like. It is like adding "cape" or "vampire" or "disguise" to a character. What I mean is, if a character is visible a vampire in an image you tag it as vampire, but you ALSO tag it as what it's name is. IN images it isn't a vampire however, you only tag it by name.

No, it's nothing like that. This isn't a character dressing up as something else. It's a character being something else.

Setsunator said:

There is no problem. If you want the civilian form, then just do a search for both names. If you want genderswap, just search for genderswap + names. If you don't want the genderswap, just do a search and -genderswap.

Not all of these cases are genderswaps, though.

And -genderswap would instantly remove two of those three images from the search results.

Setsunator said:

Why? Lets use "Robin" from Batman. His disguise is Robin, but it isn't always the same person that took on the title. So if I want say images of Robin but of say Nathan_Drake and not he other one -- but I also wanted images where he was actually Robin and not just his civilian self -- then I would search for "Robin" + "nathan_drake".

I'm not familiar with the franchise in question, but if it is as you say, and the different Robins can be clearly distinguished from one another, then the optimal solution would probably to have different tags for each individual Robin that all implicate a master Robin tag. That's both a rather unusual situation, though, and also STILL not having the civilian identity tagged on images in which the civilian does not appear.

Setsunator said:

So paying users should suffer because not paying users have a problem? That doesn't seem right. Rather, shouldn't those that pay get some benefits? That and as a non-paying user, I can't say I have ever had any problems of the nature you are describing.

Suffer? How is being able to search more precisely than what you are supporting "suffering"?

Setsunator said:

How is using "-" on considered difficult? It does not pollute if you use "-".

It does get rid of a lot of valid results, though. See above for examples.

Setsunator said:

Yes, and rather THAT is a rule that should be changed. See my comment about how spoilers are used on stuff like the real name of "lightening". Even if something is by definition a "spoiler", if it isn't actually a spoiler in practice (such as female Ranma being the male Ranma since that is pretty much the entire story and revealed in the first episode) Then it shouldn't be tagged as spoiler. Rather such spoilers should not be considered spoilers at all. However mods here don't agree with me on this one from what I can tell, so there wont be any change to this rule. What I am however saying is that the rule you are referring to is one based on flawed logic, invalidating your entire argument.

Actually it's you that's using flawed logic. You're taking one example where you can put forward a good argument that it isn't a spoiler and then claiming this as proof that this applies universally. You can't get much more flawed logic than that.

@Setsunator: > Rignak said: > I don't understand why you are...

2017-02-07T18:53:12-05:00

Rignak said:
I don't understand why you are distinguishing title and name, we could call it an identifier it will be the same.

Because one is the characters actual name, the other one is just telling you what the character is currently looking like. It is like adding "cape" or "vampire" or "disguise" to a character. What I mean is, if a character is visible a vampire in an image you tag it as vampire, but you ALSO tag it as what it's name is. IN images it isn't a vampire however, you only tag it by name.

EB said:
Then what about post #2544280, post #2559590, and post #2561431? If you wanted to search Kishibe Souta's civilian form, then that's a little over a third of the current relevant results being excluded.

There is no problem. If you want the civilian form, then just do a search for both names. If you want genderswap, just search for genderswap + names. If you don't want the genderswap, just do a search and -genderswap.

EB said:
Rather it makes searching for a character more difficult. Say you don't know their title name or fake name but know who the character is... then you wouldn't get the images you were searching for since they wouldn't turn up at all.

No you would since both names are used. One is a title/fake name used on the characters when they are in fake persona, the other one is the real name they have which should be used on all forms since they aren't seperate characters.

Really, if you want to make this an issue you should focus your attention on characters such as "Saber", where the classification is incorrectly used as the name of the character and even used on characters such as master_artoria where it shouldn't be applied at all.

Jarlath said:
Let's be realistic - just because a character has a secret identity doesn't mean that a search should always pull up that person by their secret identity or vice versa

Why? Lets use "Robin" from Batman. His disguise is Robin, but it isn't always the same person that took on the title. So if I want say images of Robin but of say Nathan_Drake and not he other one -- but I also wanted images where he was actually Robin and not just his civilian self -- then I would search for "Robin" + "nathan_drake".

Jarlath said:
regular users who are tag-limited in their searches,

So paying users should suffer because not paying users have a problem? That doesn't seem right. Rather, shouldn't those that pay get some benefits? That and as a non-paying user, I can't say I have ever had any problems of the nature you are describing.

Jarlath said:
Vega looks absolutely nothing like Orie, especially not in her Princess of Arktos days - her hair and eye color are even more different from her civilian look than her civvie look is from her Vega identity.

How is this relevant? They are still the same person.

Jarlath said:
Ditto Shazam and the ol6 other boys and girls who are his component parts - with the suggestion that we include the alternate identity with the character, a Shazam -1girl search may end up removing pictures that would have come back if those characters aren't included automatically in the search.

No, like I said... the Shazam you are talking about is a special case. If the Shazam has the same mind and just needs the souls of the other kids, then it should be tagged with just the name of that kid that is controlling Shazam. However is Shazam is a person that is magically conjured by using the souls of 6 other people, then he is a separate individual and would not be tagged as the kids since they are just akin to a magic wand that summoned him. So Shazam would not be tagged with their names since he wouldn't be them. It is pretty straight forward.

Jarlath said:
Plus, we tag ONLY what we see is the rule - and if Sheik or Batman is in the picture in their identity concealing outfit, I don't see Zelda or Bruce Wayne as Batman doesn't usually go around without his mask while wearing Bruce Wayne's suit. So yes, #1 us going to pollute searches via its automatic implication. Especially if you're limited to two tags like a Regular user. Even Gold users could run into issues if they need to use one or more of their 6 tags to filter out those alternate identities or versions.

How is using "-" on considered difficult? It does not pollute if you use "-".

Jarlath said:
Plus spoilers. Per the tagging guidelines we have to add the spoiler tag to images that can be spoilers, and have the spoiler dtext tag for comments. Method #1 explicitly violates the no spoiler policy by immediately linking two apparently unrelated characters in the search. So we either need to toss the no spoiler rule or accept that it's no longer possible to enforce with that method.

Yes, and rather THAT is a rule that should be changed. See my comment about how spoilers are used on stuff like the real name of "lightening". Even if something is by definition a "spoiler", if it isn't actually a spoiler in practice (such as female Ranma being the male Ranma since that is pretty much the entire story and revealed in the first episode) Then it shouldn't be tagged as spoiler. Rather such spoilers should not be considered spoilers at all. However mods here don't agree with me on this one from what I can tell, so there wont be any change to this rule. What I am however saying is that the rule you are referring to is one based on flawed logic, invalidating your entire argument.

@Jarlath: Let's be realistic - just because a character...

2017-02-04T01:27:41-05:00

Let's be realistic - just because a character has a secret identity doesn't mean that a search should always pull up that person by their secret identity or vice versa - and no, adding a minus to the search tag doesn't help matters, especially for regular users who are tag-limited in their searches, and if they're searching for Batman pictures are not looking for Bruce Wayne pictures. To assume otherwise us presumptuous at best, and downright idiotic at worst.

Vega looks absolutely nothing like Orie, especially not in her Princess of Arktos days - her hair and eye color are even more different from her civilian look than her civvie look is from her Vega identity. Ditto Shazam and the ol6 other boys and girls who are his component parts - with the suggestion that we include the alternate identity with the character, a Shazam -1girl search may end up removing pictures that would have come back if those characters aren't included automatically in the search.

Plus, we tag ONLY what we see is the rule - and if Sheik or Batman is in the picture in their identity concealing outfit, I don't see Zelda or Bruce Wayne as Batman doesn't usually go around without his mask while wearing Bruce Wayne's suit. So yes, #1 us going to pollute searches via its automatic implication. Especially if you're limited to two tags like a Regular user. Even Gold users could run into issues if they need to use one or more of their 6 tags to filter out those alternate identities or versions.

Plus spoilers. Per the tagging guidelines we have to add the spoiler tag to images that can be spoilers, and have the spoiler dtext tag for comments. Method #1 explicitly violates the no spoiler policy by immediately linking two apparently unrelated characters in the search. So we either need to toss the no spoiler rule or accept that it's no longer possible to enforce with that method.

@Rignak: > Setsunator said: > That does not matter. We...

2017-02-03T14:10:40-05:00

Setsunator said:
That does not matter. We are supposed to tag what we see. If a person is disguised they are still the same person. in other words we should tag that person with their real name because we see that it is them, but we should also tag them with their disguise/title name.

When I look at Sheik, I don't see Zelda, I see Sheik. I have no mean of knowing that's Zelda other than my background of player (actually I was spoiled by a friend...). If I should tag only what I see it would be Sheik, not Zelda.
I'm also in favor of #2

Tailred is a TITLE.[...]Yes, it is a fake name and thus can be considered a title.

I don't understand why you are distinguishing title and name, we could call it an identifier it will be the same.

@EB: > Setsunator said: > > It does not pollute....

2017-02-02T22:22:16-05:00

Setsunator said:

It does not pollute. Just use "-" when searching.

Then what about post #2544280, post #2559590, and post #2561431? If you wanted to search Kishibe Souta's civilian form, then that's a little over a third of the current relevant results being excluded.

Rather it makes searching for a character more difficult. Say you don't know their title name or fake name but know who the character is... then you wouldn't get the images you were searching for since they wouldn't turn up at all.

You can put the information in the Wiki.

@Setsunator: > willsolvit said: > alternate persona...

2017-02-02T17:20:34-05:00

willsolvit said:
alternate persona perhaps?

Mo that would just be confusing and make it harder to search. Besides, we already have "dual_persona" when both the disguise/secondary appearance and the normal appearance are in the same image.

kuuderes_shadow said:
Some of them do. In fact you could argue that most of them do. tailred is a different name from mitsuka souji, after all,

No she isn't. Whatever gave you that idea? It is still Mitsuka, he has just turned into a girl. Tailred is a TITLE.

kuuderes_shadow said:
kuuderes_shadow said:and solar metca is a different name again

Yes, it is a fake name and thus can be considered a title. look at the disguise name "hibiki_yoiko". It is a fake name used on images where Ranma is dressed up as Yoiko. (of course in some of those images it is even implied that it actually is a real Yoiko, but that is a different story)

kuuderes_shadow said:
- while the reader and main characters know that they are the same person (at least in the case of the first two), to the world at large they are effectively three different people.

That does not matter. We are supposed to tag what we see. If a person is disguised they are still the same person. in other words we should tag that person with their real name because we see that it is them, but we should also tag them with their disguise/title name.

kuuderes_shadow said:
Going for #1 completely pollutes searches as well - aside from issues like the cosplay and parody example mentioned above, do you really not want a way to search for a character like kishibe souta in a single tag without 92% of the results being of their alter ego? #2 and possibly #4 are the only real options here as I see it.

It does not pollute. Just use "-" when searching. Rather it makes searching for a character more difficult. Say you don't know their title name or fake name but know who the character is... then you wouldn't get the images you were searching for since they wouldn't turn up at all.

Jarlath said:
#2 is more effort to maintain but much more precise in searches.

I call BS on this. It makes searching easier. It is easier to exclude tags from images than it is to include them later on.

Jarlath said:
Billy Baxter is not Shazam.

No and I never suggested that he was. That incarnation of Shazam is created by combining multiple people.

Jarlath said:
Vega from Gear Fighter Dendoh is visually distinctive from her secret identity as Orie Kusanagi due to not having a wig or mask, and she acts far differently in that role than she does as a housewife.

This however should still have both tags as it is just a disguise. It is still the same character. She just pretends to be different when in disguise.

Jarlath said:
And there's the Tailred example of magical girls who take on a different name and identity as compared to their normal selves.

No they don't. They just look differently. TailRed is still the same twintail loving person. All the other girls are the same people with the same personality, they just happen to look differently.

Or are you saying that "Balrog"(from Street fighter) should be tagged with a different name in images where he isn't wearing his mask?

Jarlath said:
It also avoids accidental spoilers which #1 causes by its very existence... which is more of an issue with some series than others.

No this is non-argument. In the case of actual real spoilers that actually matter, the spoiler tag can be applied. But finding out that say Tailred is Souji, or that Usagi tsukino is Sailor Moon... is NOT a spoiler persay as the whole show starts by having them them transform. It is one of the main concepts of the actual show. But Danbooru is silly when it comes to spoilers. For instance "Lightnings name" is considered a spoiler. It has absolutely zero relevance in the game, it is just that you find out what her real name is about midway through the first game. Yet Danbooru doesn't tag it with her name because of... reasons.

Jarlath said:
This would also apply to other series where the secret identity is also possessing a separate personality as well as appearance.

So images where Clark Kent puts on the Superman cape should have the spoiler tag then?

@Jarlath: Alternate_persona as a tag assumes that the...

2017-01-31T05:07:56-05:00

Alternate_persona as a tag assumes that the identity is visibly like the main persona like every other alternate_* tag does. This isn't always the case, such as Tailred being nothing like his normal form. Or my use of Billy Batson (previously referred to as Baxter) and Captain Thunder - especially in the reimagined version where he (Captain Thunder) is literally six different kids of different races and genders who become one person - he's literally a composite character. Your suggestion (or #1) would mean tagging did boys send girls' names to to any appearance he makes. Or Sheik would need to be tagged with the specific Zelda game that Zelda came from as she's not always the same individual between the various continuities (Wind Waker Zelda is not the same person as A Link to the Post's Zelda, nor is she the same individual as the Ocarina of Time's Zelda). Ditto the different Ilyasveil von Einstein characters from Fate/Stay Night vs Fate/Kaleid who have completely different personalities due to the change of circumstances growing up. Hell, Emiya_shirou between those two different stories shares the same appearance but is a completely separate character as he won't become the future Shiro of F/SN... not are the Luvia or Tohsaka Rin characters of that universe the same people.

So, alternate persona as a tag fails in all those situations either because they're totally different people, or their appearance is so different that it would break with the way the other alternate_* tags get used. About the only time it fits is if it's a separate personality in the same body, like an evil side such as Hallelujah / Allelujah from Gundam 00 or Sabo Rina from yano_toshinori's work who has that lazy side which manifests as another personality differing only by the covered eye.

@BrokenEagle98: > NWF_Renim said: > > It would create a lot...

2017-01-30T23:17:09-05:00

NWF_Renim said:

It would create a lot more tags, but you could hybridize schemes 1 and 2 by having both a catchall tag for all variants and a tag exist specially to cover a character's standard appearance.

It does also create complications on how exactly to name the catchall and regular form tags if both coexist together.

Edit: Such a scheme might be ideal for characters with many different variants, although not necessarily for those with few.

So if I'm understanding the latter part of your argument correctly, you're arguing for #4, with an additional unnamed scheme #5 which would be a hybrid of #1/#2.

5. Hybrid

Pros:

Easy finding of all variants with single catch-all tag
Best search precision (same as #2)

Cons:

Hardest to setup of all

Coordination for all variant names

Lots of implications to submit (same as #1)

I haven't worked all of the math out yet, but I'm pretty sure the Hybrid approach does not add any search precision. To replicate having a catch-all tag, only the OR operator is needed.

To illustrate, say you have tags 1.a, 1.b, 1.c, 1.d, with a catchall tag of 1.

Then the search {1 -1.b} could be replicated with {~1.a -1.b ~1.c ~1.d}.

Note

Only subtraction searches are demonstrated since:

Catchall tags are subsumed with addition operator: {1 1.b}=={1.b}
Subtags are subsumed with the OR operator: {~1 ~1.b}=={1}

Am I missing something with the above...?

@willsolvit: > NWF_Renim said: > > It would create a lot...

2017-01-30T22:23:15-05:00

NWF_Renim said:

It would create a lot more tags, but you could hybridize schemes 1 and 2 by having both a catchall tag for all variants and a tag exist specially to cover a character's standard appearance.

It does also create complications on how exactly to name the catchall and regular form tags if both coexist together.

Edit: Such a scheme might be ideal for characters with many different variants, although not necessarily for those with few.

alternate persona perhaps? That way the two tags "character_name -alternate_persona" would allow people to search for the standard appearance without the variants. It might be a hassle to add the implications at first but after that there's no difficulty in keeping it tagged as it's done automatically.

Note: This is assuming scheme 1 or 2 was being followed until this point.

@NWF_Renim: It would create a lot more tags, but you could...

2017-01-30T17:10:24-05:00

It would create a lot more tags, but you could hybridize schemes 1 and 2 by having both a catchall tag for all variants and a tag exist specially to cover a character's standard appearance.

It does also create complications on how exactly to name the catchall and regular form tags if both coexist together.

Edit: Such a scheme might be ideal for characters with many different variants, although not necessarily for those with few.

@BrokenEagle98: Just to further explain what is meant by search...

2017-01-30T16:54:30-05:00

Just to further explain what is meant by search precision, I created the following tables outlining what is and isn't possible.

Note: The linked Venn Diagrama was used for the following tables: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UfUTU3vRWfMmvXdFl_lpFCllb6Ve2bkC

Scheme 1

A implies B

Area desired	Search terms
1	Not possible
2	Not possible
3	{-A B}
1,2	{A}
2,3	Not possible
1,3	Not possible
1,2,3	{B}

Also of note, {A -B} is the null set (i.e. no results), {A B}=={A}, and {~A ~B}=={B}.

Scheme 2

A,B are separate tags

Area desired	Search terms
1	{A -B}
2	{A B}
3	{-A B}
1,2	{A}
2,3	{B}
1,3	Not possible
1,2,3	{~A ~B}

Final thoughts

As can be seen from above, when A and B are tagged separately, there are a lot more search options available.

Also, this site is very much tag what you see, not what you know. Given this, as the identities are visually distinct, it therefore makes the most sense to me to tag them separately.

@Jarlath: > Setsunator said: > > I'm voting for #1 since...

2017-01-30T16:30:45-05:00

Setsunator said:

I'm voting for #1 since it makes most sense. The names characters use when genderswapped should be seen as titles. They don't actually change names and they aren't different characters per say. Not taging them with their real names as well make no sense... it's like saying that they are two different characters.

Billy Baxter is not Shazam. Vega from Gear Fighter Dendoh is visually distinctive from her secret identity as Orie Kusanagi due to not having a wig or mask, and she acts far differently in that role than she does as a housewife.

And there's the Tailred example of magical girls who take on a different name and identity as compared to their normal selves. #2 is more effort to maintain but much more precise in searches. It also avoids accidental spoilers which #1 causes by its very existence... which is more of an issue with some series than others. This would also apply to other series where the secret identity is also possessing a separate personality as well as appearance.

@user_441999: > Setsunator said: > > I'm voting for #1 since...

2017-01-30T10:42:31-05:00

Setsunator said:

I'm voting for #1 since it makes most sense. The names characters use when genderswapped should be seen as titles. They don't actually change names and they aren't different characters per say. Not taging them with their real names as well make no sense... it's like saying that they are two different characters.

Some of them do. In fact you could argue that most of them do. tailred is a different name from mitsuka souji, after all, and solar metca is a different name again - and while the reader and main characters know that they are the same person (at least in the case of the first two), to the world at large they are effectively three different people.
Going for #1 completely pollutes searches as well - aside from issues like the cosplay and parody example mentioned above, do you really not want a way to search for a character like kishibe souta in a single tag without 92% of the results being of their alter ego? #2 and possibly #4 are the only real options here as I see it.

@Setsunator: I'm voting for #1 since it makes most sense....

2017-01-30T08:38:59-05:00

I'm voting for #1 since it makes most sense. The names characters use when genderswapped should be seen as titles. They don't actually change names and they aren't different characters per say. Not taging them with their real names as well make no sense... it's like saying that they are two different characters.

@Jarlath: > BrokenEagle98 said: > > Bumping this thread...

2017-01-29T11:27:07-05:00

BrokenEagle98 said:

Bumping this thread since I've been pinged via DMail about something regarding this topic. In particular, it was about when to use Ranma-chan versus when to use Saotome Ranma. Basically, how should "Fanon" genderswap names be handled.

I'm more in favor of using #2 from above, i.e. genderswap identity and regular identity should be tagged separately. The one that pinged me believed it should be #1, i.e. genderswap identity implies regular identity.

What do others think about this?

I'm still voting #2 due to precision and the fact that the same person can be wildly different despite sharing a similar appearance and name (see Saber from Fate Stay/Night and Saber_extra who is a different person despite sharing the same general design). Or characters whose appearance completely change when they go to the alternate identity like Iron Man or Shazam - I don't usually see any sign of. Billy Baxter's childlike size with the transformed body or Tiny Stark's beard when Iron Man's helmet is on.

@BrokenEagle98: Bumping this thread since I've been pinged via...

2017-01-29T11:13:23-05:00

Bumping this thread since I've been pinged via DMail about something regarding this topic. In particular, it was about when to use Ranma-chan versus when to use Saotome Ranma. Basically, how should "Fanon" genderswap names be handled.

I'm more in favor of using #2 from above, i.e. genderswap identity and regular identity should be tagged separately. The one that pinged me believed it should be #1, i.e. genderswap identity implies regular identity.

What do others think about this?