Why is western art sometimes allowed and sometimes it is a flag reason?

@albert: I don't see a problem with the current status....

2016-10-07T14:19:10-04:00

I don't see a problem with the current status. I look at one of the properties in question here like overwatch and the majority of it is not objectionable. That Doom image. Not objectionable. The real problem isn't Western art. It's low quality art in general. That's what we should be focusing on.

It's important not to get hung up on one or two exceptions that crop up from time to time. Perfect is the enemy of good enough.

With regards to flagging, if you think something doesn't belong on this site then flag it. You're limited to 10 a day so use it wisely.

@user_460797: > tapnek said: > > This revived thread is...

2016-10-07T13:24:44-04:00

tapnek said:

This revived thread is going nowhere. Unless someone comes up with some plan on how to change the wikis or ToS, this thread might have to be put to rest.

Well, isn't this @albert task then? Since it is his website so he should say and give the guidelines what is allowed, what has to be put too higher scrutiny for us approvers aned what is prohibited.

@tapnek: This revived thread is going nowhere. Unless...

2016-10-07T12:54:23-04:00

This revived thread is going nowhere. Unless someone comes up with some plan on how to change the wikis or ToS, this thread might have to be put to rest.

@buehbueh: I didn't say that only a few people come here...

2016-10-07T12:44:06-04:00

I didn't say that only a few people come here for anime art, since almost everyone here does. I meant that a good number want art more generalized than just the current topic as we have it today. Also, I know there are many ways to make a picture. Most art that comes on this site is made in specific ways that facilitate the creation of the styles desired. That's all I meant by that whole paragraph. The difference I meant to point out is that many tags which tend to include poor art do tend to follow trends. Awful MSPaints aside, you don't see nearly as much traditional work to begin with, cause its harder to make nice clean stuff. Digital just tends to be super clean, and that's just what I notice most of the work here being. That's what I meant by bias, but perhaps preference would have been more fitting.

I also don't think the approvals were illegitimate, just as as the flags aren't, I simply don't agree with them,. The reasoning for the flags are fair based on what has been stated in the forums by higher users and the wikis, and I'll concede that we do need stronger guidelines. That said, I've made my case repeatedly defending borderline art so I'll say no more. And we do agree that the best resolution would have the wiki's changed to reflect an answer over this. Perhaps then we can go from a conflict that never moves anywhere to actionable resolution.

@NWSiaCB: > buehbueh said: > > And who says the tools...

2016-10-07T12:11:34-04:00

buehbueh said:

And who says the tools DONT matter? There's a reason I brought it up. The site features 90+ percent digital art, beside doujinshi which does tend to be inked. Wouldn't it suck if someone wanted to post hundreds of shitty inktober works drawn on cheap notebook paper right now? That's because this site is biased against traditional media for the same reason it has been biased against western art, photos, guro and furry: shitty artists abusing a free web board to post work that the fanbase in general didn't want, and people with poor taste posting the worst examples of these things. The blanket bans were devised to keep back stuff that didn't look right from getting on. But maybe those bans don't work when the standard is exclusively about content, and people get confused when a solid work is deleted for content and not quality. This is what compromise is about. We let great traditional media on just as we stop doodles from getting on, it didn't take a blanket ban to achieve.

If by "photoshop" you meant "anything that has been touched by a computer", then you're making quite a different statement. (There are plenty of different image manipulation programs, including ones specifically for manga/doujin drawings.) There is a difference between scanned sketches that are finished in image manipulation programs, tablet drawings, and drawings done entirely by mouse you're glossing completely over that make a larger difference between one another than whether any digital manipulation took place after the fact.

There has never been a ban or stated guideline against "traditional media", nor even explicit bias I have ever noticed against hand-drawn art outside of uncleaned pencil sketches and scanning quality being potential places where quality can take a strong hit.

I don't see how the tools matter when a "quality" judgement suffices; We all know we can easily find images made completely in Photoshop that are total garbage while this site has many decent inked pencil sketches or even MSPaint drawings whose artist actually took the time to add details and refinement not normally associated with the program. Shitty Inktober images should not be approved because they're shitty, (or non-anime) not because they're Inktober. (And Inktober, for that matter, is basically the same as the "one-hour draw" contests whose artwork we get on Danbooru, it's just a Western contest.)

buehbueh said:

As we go from accepting art for merit beyond content, many have learned to do so for non-japanese works. That's not people wanting to ruin the site, that's regular uploaders, including our staff, who think that it belongs. Whether they're going against the rules as they're written is beside the point here. This is a living system, made of people who each make active decisions on what they think belongs, on a whim or a long term plan.

And as we humans, as living beings in living systems, needed to cope with the pressures of different people wanting different things, rules, whether as laws or social norms, were invented and enforced because those prevent greater strife.

The reason there is a rather dramatic uptick in flagging is because the norms were simply whatever people could get away with in the past, and that caused dramatic enough conflict to cause Albert to have to change the moderation system. Some people still want those old anything-goes norms to apply, and hence, there is conflict.

Having at least honest, agreed-upon guidelines exists because they prevent conflict by providing legitimacy towards whatever decisions are made if they can be shown to be in compliance with agreed-uopn guidelines. The Doom image in question is being constantly re-flagged because there are obviously people who don't feel the previous approvals were legitimate, and that they never reached any consensus with whatever standard the people who approved the image feel should be in place.

buehbueh said:

In ending, I don't mind borderline works getting flagged, and I can't deny that aceofspudz has legitimate reason to want a change for clarity on borderline works. But think about it like this: The rules will always be in need of new wording as long as even one person thinks they need to change, even if everyone else wanted them a different way. Western art may not have a prominent place on site, but we're not here to have a battle just because a few users want an anime-only Danbooru. There's nothing wrong with wanting the rules to reflect the users, and while they may not be worded to the desires of the users now, trying to take them further back to what it was before is not worth it when most of the site has moved on.

Actually, as I've said before, I find it odd that the new set of rules is actually more tolerant of guro than "webcomic"-style Twitter and Pixiv doujins. The same written rules that apply the same extremely harsh standard to uploading Twitter strips as full published mangas have never changed, in spite of there probably being more people who look at the latest Kouji strip every day than look at any random non-comic anime art.

I seriously question your impression that only "a few" people come to Danbooru just to look at anime art, only. I suspect most users switch between Danbooru and other sites when looking for non-anime things, and only those few who live on Danbooru exclusively want all forms of things to be here. After all, flagging is relatively rare, and a tiny minority of users ever really use it, so for any one image to be flagged multiple times is an extreme rarity that probably represents a sentiment held by just one or two people who actually hit the flag button. (And for the record, no, I wasn't one of the flaggers.) If a majority of users, janitors included, wanted more non-anime works put on the site, then by your own admission, Danbooru would have already stopped being an anime-specific site at all. It's simply that the anime-viewing majority that probably is always putting up Touhou or Kantai Collection search filters don't notice when a handful of Western art slips through the cracks until such a point as, as Albert put it, "it isn't a problem until it is."

The problem I have isn't so much that there aren't perma-rules, as there are rules that have massive unstated exceptions or are so flagrantly ignored that nobody feels they are legitimate. The howto:upload guide should, at the very least, reflect what the consensus actually is or should be, rather than what it was supposed to be back when the site was started, but are routinely ignored, now.

And again, I'm not saying we need rules that state absolute bans, but simple statements that different works make things less likely to be approved. That not only allows for consensus moderation, it makes an actual consensus much more likely to be achieved because it actually helps inform where the consensus that brings up the least conflict should be and provides legitimacy for that consensus. (To bring up the previous example, again, if a flood of guro users show up, that changes the consensus, and ensures a conflict between those who wanted the old consensus and those who want the new one.)

wareya said:

I think some consideration for the artist is important because there are artists that occasionally make landscape works that can't be interpreted as having eastern or western style. But instead of the artist being western or eastern, it should be their typical focus, especially with the works they made around the same time as whatever work is being called into question.

However, it's critically important to be careful about borderline styles, because a very large number of artists that are rightfully part of whatever japanese pop art movement they fall into, do have such borderline styles. As such, the problem is not "what style of art does the artist usually make", but "does the artist's usual art fall under the site's agenda", which are very different approaches. When you think about it like that, it's obvious. The problem is what steps to take to identify whether the artist's usual art, and the particular piece of art in question, fall under the site's agenda. No, that's not a terminology problem, and yes, that's the moving target at the center of the contention in this thread. There isn't really a dichotomy between eastern and western in the first place. You can come up with extreme examples, but that's not how art styles work.

Of course, guidelines like this are hopelessly abstract and will never have a reasonable solid form, so do whatever almost makes sense.

Actual landscape images are a real rarity, however, and probably more rare than Western-style drawings of Western properties. Many landscape-like images here tend to have at least one anime figure standing in the middle of the field, just making it an unusually highly detailed background.

I don't think it's as hopelessly abstract as you make it out to be. Evolution is a complex thing, with the definition between species having some gray areas. (Hey look, a different use for a ring species link!) Likewise, art styles have influences and their own taxonomies. Different techniques are used both for achieving different results, but also to carry on different traditions.

I have been using this parody of Leifeld several times, but actually read it, and it does detail part of why "graphic novels" look the way they do. The glossy comic books that are the standard of this style, especially since the 90s, are a few images in high-priced books where excessive detail and dynamism in each square millimeter is demanded, so making a background out of exploding hot dogs makes sense, as action needs to be evoked in every frame. By contrast, the much more animation-driven anime style was developed around expressiveness through simplicity. And while a moving target, from its origins through its evolution, there is plenty of documentation for how it changes. Even just looking at Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun, which switches art styles between the shoujo manga world and "real world" says a lot about the formality of styles used for each.

As a result, when people try to ape anime style after coming from Western art influences, the mistake they make is often in trying to add too much detail. The KyoAni standard that reigns today is fields of solid color with one tone of shade and maybe one tinting to represent something shiny, like the top of the hair.

And sure, there are plenty of borderline cases, and maybe it can be difficult to express concisely (again, I can link plenty of YouTube rants about changes in anime art styles over the years, especially with 80s OVA nostalgia,) but it's not like people can't find objective and expressible differences in style, even if it becomes more a matter of intuition to people than objective measurement in people's own minds.

@Claverhouse: So can we expect a general purge of 'Western'...

2016-10-07T11:14:35-04:00

So can we expect a general purge of 'Western' influence, such as Schoolgirl art, Witches and Halloween etc., and French Maids ? --- Certainly a benighted few assume 1930s gymslips and maidservant apron and cap to be traditional Japanese gear, but they may be safely ignored as nutcases.

Farewell, a long farewell to Bonnie Kancolle; Alice and Marisa skip off into the sunset holding hands; and the maids pack up their brooms, dusters and machine-rifles and dutifully give final notice.

@wareya: I think some consideration for the artist is...

2016-10-07T08:50:57-04:00

I think some consideration for the artist is important because there are artists that occasionally make landscape works that can't be interpreted as having eastern or western style. But instead of the artist being western or eastern, it should be their typical focus, especially with the works they made around the same time as whatever work is being called into question.

However, it's critically important to be careful about borderline styles, because a very large number of artists that are rightfully part of whatever japanese pop art movement they fall into, do have such borderline styles. As such, the problem is not "what style of art does the artist usually make", but "does the artist's usual art fall under the site's agenda", which are very different approaches. When you think about it like that, it's obvious. The problem is what steps to take to identify whether the artist's usual art, and the particular piece of art in question, fall under the site's agenda. No, that's not a terminology problem, and yes, that's the moving target at the center of the contention in this thread. There isn't really a dichotomy between eastern and western in the first place. You can come up with extreme examples, but that's not how art styles work.

Of course, guidelines like this are hopelessly abstract and will never have a reasonable solid form, so do whatever almost makes sense.

@Astolfo: I definitely disagree about whether an artist...

2016-10-07T08:38:41-04:00

I definitely disagree about whether an artist being a "westerner" should matter at all.
If works with western style and western franchise are banned from the site, then there is absolutely no reason that they should suddenly be magically acceptable (or at least, becomes a "case by case basis") simply because the artist happens to be "eastern" which for one is basically impossible to clearly define, and for two has absolutely no reason to factor into the artwork itself.

@Kikimaru: Not to forget, there's no way to claim Original...

2016-10-07T07:06:35-04:00

Not to forget, there's no way to claim Original works as either Eastern / Western.

And as a European, I'm guessing my definition of "Asian" is actually broader than an American's.

@buehbueh: To NWSiaCB: It's funny you brought up those...

2016-10-07T05:23:04-04:00

To NWSiaCB: It's funny you brought up those "learn to draw manga books" by people who can't really draw well enough to have art that is featured here, regardless of what they're trying to draw. It tends to be pretty cheap looking however it's sliced. I wouldn't defend that type of anime art at all, considering how much I've actually consumed, I know better. Anime is many things, but it's not the debate to actually have here. This debate is on the problem of borderline works and whether we want to be a perma-rules site or a consensus-guidelines site. I'm advocating the latter here.

Conflict is just a normal part of this site, and that's fine. I'm seeing stuff that I wouldn't approve or upload posted by mods and other janitors every day. They see the same rules and get a different idea of what belongs here. The site has been based on a relative consensus standard for most of it's history. In 10 years the rules changed to reflect what the site consensus was. First it was just what everyone wanted, then hard bans on content to clean the mess. Now we're in the era of critically thinking about why many(not all of) these rules were implemented and asking if they make sense anymore. The consensus might change 2 or 3 years from now, but I'm seeing a certain consensus today, at least one spread amongst most mods/janitors/active members/builders. If 5 or so users think the show isn't run as they should, perhaps they're right, but the standard has always been about compromise. You can't have healthy consensus without basic compromise.

On who comes here for what, of course its a self-fulfilling prophecy. We have a set fanbase who comes here and desires specific arbitrary things. And who says the tools DONT matter? There's a reason I brought it up. The site features 90+ percent digital art, beside doujinshi which does tend to be inked. Wouldn't it suck if someone wanted to post hundreds of shitty inktober works drawn on cheap notebook paper right now? That's because this site is biased against traditional media for the same reason it has been biased against western art, photos, guro and furry: shitty artists abusing a free web board to post work that the fanbase in general didn't want, and people with poor taste posting the worst examples of these things. The blanket bans were devised to keep back stuff that didn't look right from getting on. But maybe those bans don't work when the standard is exclusively about content, and people get confused when a solid work is deleted for content and not quality. This is what compromise is about. We let great traditional media on just as we stop doodles from getting on, it didn't take a blanket ban to achieve.

As we go from accepting art for merit beyond content, many have learned to do so for non-japanese works. That's not people wanting to ruin the site, that's regular uploaders, including our staff, who think that it belongs. Whether they're going against the rules as they're written is beside the point here. This is a living system, made of people who each make active decisions on what they think belongs, on a whim or a long term plan.

And as one of the last batch of janitors to have been promoted, I'll say this: all staff have to make reasonable decisions on what belongs here and what doesn't. If someone disagrees with any other persons judgment, they should feel free to speak up, which is already in play here. Some have pined for a few people's demotions, but that's beyond the scope of this forum post. On Eternal September, whether or not we have or will have one, doesn't change the fact we have 4 admins, dozens of mods and janitors, and hundreds of active users ready to flag, ban and delete poor works, and hanging out everyday here does color my views on this, seeing some people take time every day to make sure we don't have forum spam or other kinds of crap get on. If a new user wants to disagree, that's not a problem. Everything is negotiable here, as long as there is an active user base who wants good art, we're going to have to keep thinking about what that good art is, and make rules that sometimes have to change. That's not a flaw, but a feature.

In ending, I don't mind borderline works getting flagged, and I can't deny that aceofspudz has legitimate reason to want a change for clarity on borderline works. But think about it like this: The rules will always be in need of new wording as long as even one person thinks they need to change, even if everyone else wanted them a different way. Western art may not have a prominent place on site, but we're not here to have a battle just because a few users want an anime-only Danbooru. There's nothing wrong with wanting the rules to reflect the users, and while they may not be worded to the desires of the users now, trying to take them further back to what it was before is not worth it when most of the site has moved on.

@Kikimaru: W T F

2016-10-07T03:42:21-04:00

W
T
F

@tapnek: > NWSiaCB said: > > There was a good argument...

2016-10-07T03:41:55-04:00

NWSiaCB said:

There was a good argument several years ago on these forums about how janitors were becoming a ring species, whose tastes conflicted with one another to the point that conflict over what is and isn't acceptable became inevitable... and it's proven an entirely accurate prediction.

And there will be another argument that brings that up again years, maybe even months, from now. Between that point in time and now, have the uploads and approval habits really changed in regards to Western art? I'm not seeing the point in this issue being discussed any further if nothing significant is gonna happen.

@NWSiaCB: > chodorov said: > > It would be nice to have...

2016-10-07T03:12:49-04:00

chodorov said:

It would be nice to have a clear definition of what a "western style" is. People have called many of my uploads western styled but I don't see how.

It's difficult to articulate with words, (or rather, I'd have to use far too many words to do so, as I can easily link some extremely long rants about not only what anime style is, but how it has evolved,) but I can pretty strongly intuit the difference between someone who understands anime-style artwork and people who are just doing an imitation of anime-style when they have clearly learned other styles first, and those influence their work. (In particular, I go into a bookstore, and see "how to draw anime" books that are clearly not drawn by anyone who's spent more than ten minutes looking at anime, and obviously has practiced with western comics. They even have clearly non-Yakuza characters with tattoos on the cover...)

Would you mind linking some of those uploads where you had that problem? I'd like to judge for myself.

buehbueh said:

ALL art on Danbooru is judged case by case. It's also judged against the whole. Most people who spend more than a few months coming here get to know its character, what trends are happening and what the fandoms here like. We tolerate differing taste as a matter of compromise.

While your WWW policy comes off sound at first, it's not reasonable from a couple of perspectives:

Western art is always borderline art. Just as furry and guro have both come to carry conditional weight, non-anime and specifically European/American works can fit the standards of design too, even without carrying all the stylization, theme or sourcing. That is what the discussion came to, and there's no giant flood of work. Works that deviate too far are getting flagged, including several I approved a long time before, but I let them go, since it was obvious that there was no way they would be accepted by other approvers. Flagged art that ends up uncontested usually lacks arguable merit from a sufficient standpoint of fitting in, either by the look or the purpose of it. We can't really fit in Warhol stuff for that reason: It's not made for the consumption of the types of fans that come to the site.

Except there is a "conditionally accepted" category for things in the howto:upload for things that are judged on a case-by-case basis that might get in, but have extra scrutiny... and furry and non-anime are not in it, they are in the "rejected" category. (There is very strong warning against guro, but admission that some level will be accepted, which is a fair enough level of clarity.) If you don't want those rules/guidelines to stand, then you should be getting those rules/guidelines changed.

Saying "everything is negotiable" means there are absolutely no rules but what fits the arbitrary whims of whichever janitors happen to see a post, only countered by the number and persistence of flaggers, which is in turn countered only by number of janitors willing to re-approve it.

buehbueh said:

The post that keeps getting flagged on the other hand is not specifically a "western" in the drawn-like-Jack Kirby Batmanesque works made in an office in NYC which deviates into the traditional ink-and-paint art that isn't the norm here. It's official video game work done in Photoshop by a professional for a current IP, using the same tools and general design tropes present in many modern games across both sides of the Pacific. Trying to use hard defining points of "Is it Japanese/Anime" or not is pretty pointless here. Many people do come to this site for both the anime and specific types of non-anime that tend to get approved. I have no doubt that more than a few people here would agree with that point.

The tools used to make artwork have little bearing upon the style of art. By that standard, is official Minecraft art anime? That was made on a computer by a paid professional artist for a gaming IP. I also think there may be more subtelty to the differences in "art tropes" that distinguish Eastern and Western art than you give credit for, here. While anime is more complex than a single style, with Shoujo looking drastically different from the KyoAni standard that reigns today to something deliberately stylized like anything made by SHAFT, each branch of the art style has a clear pedigree and the Japanese tend to have a far stricter view on what forms are acceptable and where they are willing to deviate in style.

Also, saying that people come here for what gets approved is a self-fulfilling prophecy, and a potential Eternal September situation. If we start approving tons of guro art, then guro-art-seeking users will start joining and wanting their guro art uploaded because, hey, that's what they come here for and expect.

Again, the problem is there are no rules but the whims of whoever has the power of approval perpetuating their own tastes. There was a good argument several years ago on these forums about how janitors were becoming a ring species, whose tastes conflicted with one another to the point that conflict over what is and isn't acceptable became inevitable... and it's proven an entirely accurate prediction.

@buehbueh: Even if you think it's a valid reason to flag,...

2016-10-07T02:06:42-04:00

Even if you think it's a valid reason to flag, and I can't really stop you there based on albert's wording a couple months ago, I'm going to disagree with the spirit of your argument, and this "new" flag.

ALL art on Danbooru is judged case by case. It's also judged against the whole. Most people who spend more than a few months coming here get to know its character, what trends are happening and what the fandoms here like. We tolerate differing taste as a matter of compromise.

While your WWW policy comes off sound at first, it's not reasonable from a couple of perspectives:

Western art is always borderline art. Just as furry and guro have both come to carry conditional weight, non-anime and specifically European/American works can fit the standards of design too, even without carrying all the stylization, theme or sourcing. That is what the discussion came to, and there's no giant flood of work. Works that deviate too far are getting flagged, including several I approved a long time before, but I let them go, since it was obvious that there was no way they would be accepted by other approvers. Flagged art that ends up uncontested usually lacks arguable merit from a sufficient standpoint of fitting in, either by the look or the purpose of it. We can't really fit in Warhol stuff for that reason: It's not made for the consumption of the types of fans that come to the site.

The post that keeps getting flagged on the other hand is not specifically a "western" in the drawn-like-Jack Kirby Batmanesque works made in an office in NYC which deviates into the traditional ink-and-paint art that isn't the norm here. It's official video game work done in Photoshop by a professional for a current IP, using the same tools and general design tropes present in many modern games across both sides of the Pacific. Trying to use hard defining points of "Is it Japanese/Anime" or not is pretty pointless here. Many people do come to this site for both the anime and specific types of non-anime that tend to get approved. I have no doubt that more than a few people here would agree with that point.

If it takes NWSiaCB's suggestion that we say Db is an anime+gaming art site, I'd throw my support around that in order to move this forward more constructively. From my perspective, that is already the case. We haven't deviated from the quality standard at all in order to achieve that, and we've facilitated means for people to already avoid such art if they don't want it. More rules adjustments seems unnecessary.

@aceofspudz: > What makes someone an eastern artistYou might...

2016-10-07T00:42:17-04:00

What makes someone an eastern artist

You might blithely pretend as though these distinctions are mysterious but they are not so mysterious in practice. Westerners have western names and affectations. Borderline cases may be adjudicated, but there are a lot less of these. WWW concerns itself with what is undeniable, not what is liminal. A half-Japanese living in Brazil raised by Western parents might credibly claim to be eastern under WWW, but he probably isn't going to be pumping out Liefield drawings in the first place is he?

The rarefied exceptions are not worth scuttling a standard over. The exceptions can be puzzled out on a case-by-case basis. Our present situation is that everything is a case by case basis, which is horrible.

WWW is a confluence of factors. Westerner, Western style, Western IP.

@chilled_sake: It would be nice to have a clear definition of...

2016-10-07T00:18:05-04:00

It would be nice to have a clear definition of what a "western style" is. People have called many of my uploads western styled but I don't see how.

And I have a problem with the "western artist" classification. It seems first of all really in contrast to eastern artists so I will refer to that instead. What makes someone an eastern artist, their race and ethnicity, culture, language, or simply where they live; some combination thereof? Moreover is this originating from a Japaonophile impulse? In which case, which countries and peoples would you consider part of the eastern artist label? I could conceivably see someone making an arbitrary cutoff and saying a Thai or Burmese artist isn't 'Eastern' enough. What would this lead to, categorizing artists based on their race and where they are from? Seems like endless and pointless genealogies for people who are often anonymous, and for what purpose exactly.

I think the other WWW points can stand on their own without the western artist one and still make the unambiguous red line you desire. But before I can agree to saying it's good basis for a consensus, western style needs an explanation.

@aceofspudz: My thought is to create a basement standard,...

2016-10-06T22:59:33-04:00

My thought is to create a basement standard, not a 'general guideline', for definitive rejection.

Since BrokenEagle and NWS both seized upon different elements of this standard, I think that indicates that I'm on the right track for a point of agreement. My point is that we start with what we mostly all agree on doesn't belong. Create a bright line rule and work backwards, rather than create a fuzzy rule that is never enforced anywhere.

In my experience all 'not anime' flags are contested hotly. A more hardline WWW flag would be less contentious, since the only point remaining to be debated would be whether the art was western style, which is often quite clear.

You could still flag works for the vaguer 'not anime' tag, but a WWW is more of a hard 'fuck off.'

Edit:

Provence said:

It should always be irrelevant where an artist is coming from.

The point is to create a bottom-line, a common denominator. If a Japanese artist is turning out stuff that violates the other two WWs, it's a case-by-case basis, not a fiat rejection.

@user_460797: Still don't get what the artist's nationality...

2016-10-06T22:50:02-04:00

Still don't get what the artist's nationality has do with it.
So a picture with a western IP drawn in a western style by an eastern artist is acceptable? It should always be irrelevant where an artist is coming from.

@NWSiaCB: > aceofspudz said: > > NWS, would you at least...

2016-10-06T22:49:24-04:00

aceofspudz said:

NWS, would you at least grant the WWW rule is a step forward?

Any sort of clarity and consistency would be a step forward.

Honestly, I don't think we need that first "W". If something looks like a Liefeld drawing, then the race or geographic location of the artist should be totally irrelevant.

Beyond that, Western style and Western IP seems like a fine enough standard, and could be something you could form consistency around. (Deadpool alone shouldn't be here, but Deadpool dressing up as a Mahou Shoujo or in clearly anime art style are fine.)

As far as the DOOM image that sparked this latest round, I get the feeling as if "video games" as a vague subject is considered "anime" on Danbooru, since it seems like it doesn't matter whether it's a Capcom or a Activision game, (and I mean stuff besides Overwatch, like Starcraft,) if it's gaming-related, it gets approved in spite of the rules. I wouldn't really like it, but if the zeitgeist of Danbooru moderation were to just finally up and declare "anime-related AND gaming-related", it would at least be consistent, because it seems the vast majority of non-anime stuff is gaming-related to the point that we had Western-drawn #gamergate political agenda stuff being uploaded for a while.

@BrokenEagle98: Since dealing with how others upload rarely...

2016-10-06T22:34:19-04:00

Since dealing with how others upload rarely seems to work, it might be more effective to deal with the situation as it is.

Western Artist
Western Style
Western IP

With those two categories that currently exist, you could create a (massive) blacklist if desired. I agree it shouldn't necessarily have to be that way, but then again from my point of view all of the tags in my blacklist shouldn't exist on this website but they do... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It would help if there was a Wiki listing all of the western artists and a wiki listing all of the western IPs in one location. With the addition of a western_(style) tag that actually gets populated, you could have the complete trifecta. With that each permutation could be created as a blacklist.

Example blacklist entry:

andrew_whatshisname starcraft_3:_the_starcraftening western_(style)

If the above IP/artist wikis and western_(style) tag did get created, I'm sure you could find someone OTS that could generate such a blacklist automatically for general use.