(Short) Twintails vs. Two Side up

@Mikaeri: > Flopsy said: > > +1 to letting two_side_up...

2016-12-17T21:39:09-05:00

Flopsy said:

+1 to letting two_side_up imply twintails. It makes sense as a subset, and it's just one negated tag to add in those cases where one is only interested in "full" twintails.

I'm not sure there's any meaningful difference between one_side_up and side_ponytail as actually tagged. The wiki for side_ponytail cites flandre_scarlet as an example, but she usually doesn't have all or even most of her hair bunched up in her side tail. That said, +1 to letting the former imply the latter anyway. With that implication, none of the existing side_ponytail taggings will be incorrect, and people can add one_side_up wherever it applies, if they want to bother.

Ah, you're right on that note, save for if there's one character with two side up and another with full twintails, which is what kuudere seemed to imply in forum #123663. It seems to be a "here and there" thing though, but I may be wrong. I haven't looked through multiple_girls two_side_up twintails extensively. Heck, we might even be running into the same problem searching for that already, because again with the assumption of some two side up styles being twintails also.

I do understand the importance of keeping them separate, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of taggers are divided on whether to tag them one, the other, or both in the appearance of a two side up or one side up hairstyle. It's especially apparent since some of the less experienced taggers won't know about two side up and tag twintails anyway because it's what they see.

It's a very unclean divide, and I think that if either twintails or side ponytail are supersets of two side up and one side up respectively, then gardening for both of the latter tags will be much easier than how it is right now.

For now I'll also be +1 on the tentative implications of two side up -> twintails and one side up -> side ponytail, but this is a huge decision; these are tags that are very popular in the database, so before I (or someone else) make the implication I do want others to chime back into this discussion.

@Flopsy: +1 to letting two_side_up imply twintails. It...

2016-12-17T21:22:45-05:00

+1 to letting two_side_up imply twintails. It makes sense as a subset, and it's just one negated tag to add in those cases where one is only interested in "full" twintails.

I'm not sure there's any meaningful difference between one_side_up and side_ponytail as actually tagged. The wiki for side_ponytail cites flandre_scarlet as an example, but she usually doesn't have all or even most of her hair bunched up in her side tail. That said, +1 to letting the former imply the latter anyway. With that implication, none of the existing side_ponytail taggings will be incorrect, and people can add one_side_up wherever it applies, if they want to bother.

@Mikaeri: > kuuderes_shadow said: > > In what...

2016-12-10T04:00:48-05:00

kuuderes_shadow said:

In what circumstances would you say it's right to tag two side up and twintails in reference to the same character's hairstyle then? Ditto with one side up and side ponytail on the same hairstyle.

If you think it's not necessarily wrong to tag a hairstyle with both tags then you must think there are circumstances in which doing so is the right thing to do and thus that it would be wrong not to tag them with both.

I'm still most likely echoing the same sentiment I had in forum #123647, that I think two side up is basically a subset of twintails and one side up is a subset of side ponytail. That's why I don't disagree with them tagging them both. Why I say it's not necessarily wrong is because I think taggers are inclined to tag both when they're unsure (due to the fact that the bulk of two side up "tails" can really vary) or share the same opinion as I do, since both (if considered separate hairstyles) embody part of the other's style.

I've almost always tagged two side up alone when I see it. It's just now I have this passing thought where it does make sense that two side up is twintails, but I do understand the concern if one get merged into the other as a subset -- it makes searching for twintails where pretty much all of the bulk of the hair is tied into twintails harder. Maybe one solution is to have a tag for the kind of twintails that does have that feature, and then have twintails be a wholly encompassing tag that both two side up and the proposed tag implicate, but the problem is that that kind of solution isn't really intuitive for anyone. And it would require an ungodly amount of gardening.

And of course, the same kind of problem with one side up and side ponytail, although that one I consider to be much more obvious. It's just that the one side up tag is not very much prevalent. Before this discussion I wasn't even aware that tag existed.

EDIT: Added some clarification.

@user_441999: In what circumstances would you say it's right...

2016-12-10T03:21:01-05:00

In what circumstances would you say it's right to tag two side up and twintails in reference to the same character's hairstyle then? Ditto with one side up and side ponytail on the same hairstyle.

If you think it's not necessarily wrong to tag a hairstyle with both tags then you must think there are circumstances in which doing so is the right thing to do and thus that it would be wrong not to tag them with both.

@Mikaeri: > kuuderes_shadow said: > > With regards the...

2016-12-09T19:05:11-05:00

kuuderes_shadow said:

With regards the half updo I was referring specifically to the ponytail version. Although I changed the post as I went along in a way that made the comparison less relevant anyway.

With regards the overlap, bear in mind that more than half the images in both cases have multiple characters on them, and in a lot of those cases there are two characters with the different hairstyles. Other cases are probably just people adding both in confusion, or adding one but forgetting to remove the other.

EB said:

There actually isn't really a tag for the ponytail version (some don't have a visible half_updo. See for example, Tenshi: post #677440 ). I brought that up at the end of topic #7079, but there were no suggestions on what to name it.

If it were me and I saw an entry with a single girl with a half updo hairstyle that ended in a ponytail, I would just tag both hairstyles in. A half updo + a ponytail still has a ponytail in it, despite it being nontraditional. But if we were to come up with some sort of a tag name for it, maybe... half_updo_into_ponytail? Sounds a bit long, but I think it would be okay.

In regards to the overlap, it's probably the case that people are just adding both in conclusion, but I wouldn't necessarily say it's wrong to tag an entry with both two side up + twintails or one side up + side ponytail. If we look at the searches again with 1girl:
two_side_up twintails 1girl
two_side_up -twintails 1girl
one_side_up side_ponytail 1girl
one_side_up -side_ponytail 1girl

There is still a considerably large overlap versus a large mutual exclusion between the pairs.

@EB: There actually isn't really a tag for the...

2016-12-09T09:47:10-05:00

There actually isn't really a tag for the ponytail version (some don't have a visible half_updo. See for example, Tenshi: post #677440 ). I brought that up at the end of topic #7079, but there were no suggestions on what to name it.

@user_441999: With regards the half updo I was referring...

2016-12-09T04:33:42-05:00

With regards the half updo I was referring specifically to the ponytail version. Although I changed the post as I went along in a way that made the comparison less relevant anyway.

With regards the overlap, bear in mind that more than half the images in both cases have multiple characters on them, and in a lot of those cases there are two characters with the different hairstyles. Other cases are probably just people adding both in confusion, or adding one but forgetting to remove the other.

@chilled_sake: > CodeKyuubi said: > > Hmm, I've always...

2016-12-09T03:29:54-05:00

CodeKyuubi said:

Hmm, I've always interpreted it as a smaller portion of a greater hair amount, because calling it twintails instead kind of goes against the classic interpretation of twintails.

Okay well I've made a slight modification to the wiki to clarify that and someone can further alter it as they see fit.

@CodeKyuubi: > sweetpeɐ said: > > Well small portion reads...

2016-12-09T03:25:57-05:00

sweetpeɐ said:

Well small portion reads to me as a limitation on length as well. Judging by the alternate interpretation that length is not in consideration than sure they are two side up but my intuitive understanding is that they are meant to be like short twintails with the rest of the hair falling another way.

Hmm, I've always interpreted it as a smaller portion of a greater hair amount, because calling it twintails instead kind of goes against the classic interpretation of twintails.

@chilled_sake: > CodeKyuubi said: > > All of those look like...

2016-12-09T03:24:04-05:00

CodeKyuubi said:

All of those look like proper usage of two side up to me. The wiki specifically states Toosaka Rin as an example of two side up, in that a portion of the hair is tied up into two tails, specifying amount rather than length.

Well small portion reads to me as a limitation on length as well. Judging by the alternate interpretation that length is not in consideration than sure they are two side up but my intuitive understanding is that they are meant to be like short twintails with the rest of the hair falling another way.

@Mikaeri: > Provence said: > > I don't quite agree with...

2016-12-09T03:22:12-05:00

Provence said:

I don't quite agree with the ponytail - half updo connection.
The definition of half updo does not include ponytail anywhere. A ponytail could still be there, but is not essential. For example, there could also be a braid instead of a ponytail.

Yeah, that's what I was making out -- that that connection shouldn't be made. Half updo just refers to the hair at the temples. If they happen to be long enough, they can form ponytails or braids, but you'll often see them in a "princess knot" form too, which doesn't feature that at all.

A hairstyle that consists of the hair at the temples pulled back into a bun, short ponytail, or just a bow at the back of the head, while the rest of the hair remains flowing loosely.

@user_460797: I don't quite agree with the ponytail - half...

2016-12-09T03:15:52-05:00

I don't quite agree with the ponytail - half updo connection.
The definition of half updo does not include ponytail anywhere. A ponytail could still be there, but is not essential. For example, there could also be a braid instead of a ponytail.

@Mikaeri: I suppose so, but my gripe with it is that it...

2016-12-09T03:13:53-05:00

I suppose so, but my gripe with it is that it just doesn't seem intuitive enough to grasp. Albeit if the implication did exist, then users would have to search something like side_ponytail -one_side_up if they didn't want to see hairstyles that were one side up. Even on Shimada Arisu's wiki page it says this:

Person: light brown hair, brown eyes, long hair, side ponytail/twintails, bangs

Perhaps the wiki page could stand to use a revision by adding it in, but so the same would have to go for most characters that feature a one side up or two side up hairstyle.

The split between some of them is incredibly vast though:
two_side_up twintails
two_side_up -twintails
-two_side_up twintails

And also for one side up and side ponytail:
one_side_up side_ponytail
one_side_up -side_ponytail
-one_side_up side_ponytail

I semi-agree with you on ponytail to half updo though. Half updos can have a ponytail (and there are certainly styles with both), but it isn't necessary. Half updos can end with a knot or a ribbon, after all.

@CodeKyuubi: > sweetpeɐ said: > > Some characters are...

2016-12-09T03:12:05-05:00

sweetpeɐ said:

Some characters are tagged as two side up although the portion tied up may actually much longer than the wiki provides for (e.g. post #2563836 and toosaka_rin in general; another example, past shoulder length: post #2560223).

Also sidelocks are often inappropriately tagged two side up such as in post #2562196.

Here is another two side up that runs too long post #2561271.

So if there were an implication I guess it would have to be straight to twintails instead of short twintails since things are pretty messy.

All of those look like proper usage of two side up to me. The wiki specifically states Toosaka Rin as an example of two side up, in that a portion of the hair is tied up into two tails, specifying amount rather than length.

@chilled_sake: Some characters are tagged as two side up...

2016-12-09T03:08:31-05:00

Some characters are tagged as two side up although the portion tied up may actually much longer than the wiki provides for (e.g. post #2563836 and toosaka_rin in general; another example, past shoulder length: post #2560223).

Also sidelocks are often inappropriately tagged two side up such as in post #2562196.

Here is another two side up that runs too long post #2561271.

So if there were an implication I guess it would have to be straight to twintails instead of short twintails since things are pretty messy.

@user_441999: To give my personal opinion on...

2016-12-09T03:05:36-05:00

To give my personal opinion on combinations/implications/aliases in this area:

ponytail -------- half updo
twintails ------- two side up
side ponytail --- one side up

I see these three relations to be relatively similar, and think that in each case the one on the left is a distinctly different hairstyle the one on the right. I would thus be opposed to any proposal that led to their combination.

@Mikaeri: > kuuderes_shadow said: > > I've never had...

2016-12-09T02:53:07-05:00

kuuderes_shadow said:

I've never had problems with two side up vs. twintails. But I do have difficulty between one side up and side ponytail. Applying the logic of "one side up = two side up but only up on one side" then various characters that routinely get tagged with side ponytail should be one side up instead. Shimada Arisu mentioned above is one of them. Most pictures of Hagikaze (kantai collection) would also fall into this category.

I think side ponytail is probably more thought of than one side up when that sort of hairstyle is seen, actually. It never occurred to me that we even had a one side up tag. But if my opinion is anything worth, I think that one side up is essentially a subset of side ponytail, just like how I think two side up is ideally a subset of twintails if we're defining twintails as just two bunched up tails of hair without regard to the bulk or portion of the rest of the hair drooping down. I'm for those implications, but I do want to discuss this a bit more before coming to any rapid conclusions.

@user_441999: I've never had problems with two side up vs....

2016-12-09T02:45:17-05:00

I've never had problems with two side up vs. twintails. But I do have difficulty between one side up and side ponytail. Applying the logic of "one side up = two side up but only up on one side" then various characters that routinely get tagged with side ponytail should be one side up instead. Shimada Arisu mentioned above is one of them. Most pictures of Hagikaze (kantai collection) would also fall into this category.

@Mikaeri: From the subsection ツーサイドアップ of ツインテール on...

2016-12-09T02:29:51-05:00

From the subsection ツーサイドアップ of ツインテール on Wikipedia (super quick and rough translation):

A hairstyle where hair on the head is bunched up and tied on both sides around the top of the ear, while all the rest of the hair hangs back (put the sides up). Since it looks like a completely different hairstyle from twintails, however, it tends to be called a different hairstyle entirely: "two side up". The hairstyle takes its name from doll culture and has almost nothing in common with twintails save for the fact that both hairstyles feature two tied up bunches of hair. Two side up often looks like ordinary long hair rather than twintails. It sometimes is called "rabbit knot" (because the hairstyle resembles the silhouette of a rabbit) or "half twintails". However, because both hairstyles bunch up long hair together into two parts, two side up is sometimes erroneously referred to as twintails, but the difference between the two is fairly ambiguous.

EDIT: Well, it seems we have our origins for the hairstyle name now.

@chilled_sake: > Ricetaffy said: > > Ah, sure. I can go ahead...

2016-12-09T02:26:31-05:00

Ricetaffy said:

Ah, sure. I can go ahead and translate the pixipedia entry, but I'll try searching for other resources before I do so.

Oh well, I wasn't precise. I didn't mean to request a translation but was rather asking if the term came from a translation. But I guess one could in fact add to the discussion.