Maid_headdress -> frilled_hairband implication?

@Benit149: > iridescent_slime said: > > Is a maid...

2017-03-19T21:43:02-04:00

iridescent_slime said:

Is a maid headdress really just any frilled hairband worn by a maid? I feel like there's a substantial difference between the hairbands with frills along the edges (post #2657991, post #2663746) and the ones with a single vertical frill (post #2620339, post #2661396), with the latter type being the one traditionally associated with French maids. This seems like enough of a visual distinction to separate the tags based on what the headpiece looks like rather than the rest of the character's outfit.

Yeah, there is the specifically styled one, which I wasn't aware of. It's just that any image of a maid wearing a hairband automatically makes taggers like me use maid headdress without thinking about the specific style. I don't know about you, but I'm not interested in going through the trouble to cherry-pick the French maid-styled hairbands out of thousands of maid_headdress posts and migrating them to a new tag.

I've no problem with splitting the tag up as described, except that none of those tags seems like a good match for other types of hairbands like in post #2584925. It would still be nice to have a catchall tag for elaborate hairbands that lack lace or frills, even if it isn't called lolita hairband.

For post #2584925, if it were up to me, I'd make like a floral hairband or flower hairband type of tag to cover such a specific design. But if a catchall tag would be better than making individual tags for every possible style, which might rarely show up in posts anyway, perhaps ones like fancy hairband or ornate hairband could work. The wiki would state that the hairband has to have other design elements other than the popular ones like frills, lace and lace trim. These elements could include flowers, baubles, gems, food, etc.

@iridescent_slime: > Benit149 said: > > Maid headdress:...

2017-03-19T04:56:13-04:00

Benit149 said:

Maid headdress: Specifically used for when a maid wears one. I'm fine with the current tag name, and aliasing popular synonyms like maid_hairband or maid_headpiece to it. Whether or not it's frilled or lacy or whatever would need to be tagged separately.

Is a maid headdress really just any frilled hairband worn by a maid? I feel like there's a substantial difference between the hairbands with frills along the edges (post #2657991, post #2663746) and the ones with a single vertical frill (post #2620339, post #2661396), with the latter type being the one traditionally associated with French maids. This seems like enough of a visual distinction to separate the tags based on what the headpiece looks like rather than the rest of the character's outfit.

Frilled hairband: If we want to expand this frilled subset to include lace and lace-trimmed hairbands, then I propose that there be three tags made instead of just one; frilled_hairband, lace_hairband, and lace-trimmed_hairband. A lace_hairband would be entirely composed of lace, while a lace-trimmed_hairband just has lace as trimmings around the hairband. Then whatever else doesn't fit with what I described above (not a lolita or maid) would be a plain frilled_hairband.

I've no problem with splitting the tag up as described, except that none of those tags seems like a good match for other types of hairbands like in post #2584925. It would still be nice to have a catchall tag for elaborate hairbands that lack lace or frills, even if it isn't called lolita hairband.

@Benit149: I got rid of the 'white frills' part in lolita...

2017-03-08T11:08:23-05:00

I got rid of the 'white frills' part in lolita hairband so that it's no longer color specific.

Anyway, after reading through all of these responses and doing some research on Google, my current assertion for the three tags is as such:

Lolita hairband: This could go one of two ways. One, that this should be reserved only for the gothic lolita or lolita group since it appears to pertain to that specific fashion style. That would mean some tag gardening to move the non-lolita hairbands to the three I'll describe below.

Likewise, lolita_hairband can be nuked and moved to a more intuitive tag, like Kuuderes Shadow said. After all, the only object on Danbooru that is labeled as 'lolita' (excluding lolita_fashion) is the hairband. No dress, legwear, lingerie, nothing else. Just the hairband, and I find that rather pointless. By that logic, we either make lolita-related tags to make it fit, or we get rid of lolita_hairband and move the posts to appropriate tags, and I'm all for the latter.

Maid headdress: Specifically used for when a maid wears one. I'm fine with the current tag name, and aliasing popular synonyms like maid_hairband or maid_headpiece to it. Whether or not it's frilled or lacy or whatever would need to be tagged separately.

Frilled hairband: If we want to expand this frilled subset to include lace and lace-trimmed hairbands, then I propose that there be three tags made instead of just one; frilled_hairband, lace_hairband, and lace-trimmed_hairband. A lace_hairband would be entirely composed of lace, while a lace-trimmed_hairband just has lace as trimmings around the hairband. Then whatever else doesn't fit with what I described above (not a lolita or maid) would be a plain frilled_hairband.

@iridescent_slime: Upon further reflection, I don't understand why...

2017-03-07T14:06:26-05:00

Upon further reflection, I don't understand why lolita hairband is defined by having frills at all. Many of the accessories tagged as such have lace trim instead (post #3105, post #202491, post #350650) or something else altogether (post #1804928, Rem's hairband). Moreover, a Google Images search turns up more hairbands without frills than with frills. It seems like the real problem here is that the wiki definition is simply far too narrow.

In light of this, I'm withdrawing my assertion that frilled hairband is a lolita hairband duplicate. It seems that there may be quite a few cases where they are exclusive of each other.

@EB: One problem with implications or aliases,...

2017-03-07T13:55:14-05:00

One problem with implications or aliases, though: are these hairbands always necessarily frilled anyway? post #2542958 looks more like lace-trimmed than frilled to me.

@EB: I don't know why the wiki says lolita hairband...

2017-03-07T13:33:21-05:00

I don't know why the wiki says lolita hairband needs to have white frills. The frills come in all different colors. If you want to be specific about the color, then I have no problem with (color)_frills tags being made.

Personally I would prefer "maid headdress" to be "maid hairband" to be consistent if we go along with these implications. Makes more sense to me as I tend to think of something larger when I see "headdress" (which a Google image search on the base word bears out).

@user_441999: For intuitiveness, think about it like this....

2017-03-07T13:19:07-05:00

For intuitiveness, think about it like this. Imagine you asked 10 native English speakers if they knew what a frilled headband is, and another ten if they knew what a lolita hairband is. How many would you expect to answer yes to each? I would expect 10 and 0, respectively. And plenty of strange looks from the first group in an "of course I do" sort of way.

Plus we have frilled skirt, dress, sleeves, bikini, shirt collar, panties, pillow, legwear, bra, apron, swimsuit, shirt, bow, hat, kimono, collar, gloves, choker, ribbon, capelet, shorts, cuffs, leotard, hair tubes, shawl, umbrella (lol), boots, ascot, blouse, vest, negligee, underwear, innertube, bag, pants, sash, curtains, tabard, jacket, obi and gap (?). If lolita hairband is really just used for any frilled hairband and nothing more then why should that have its own tag which is some relatively obscure term, and one for which half the results of a google image search for the term aren't frilled hairbands to begin with?

@user_460797: That's something I don't know much about. I...

2017-03-07T12:52:15-05:00

That's something I don't know much about.
I think @EB might know something more here, but it's only a guess.

@Benit149: Okay. So what about maid_headdress?

2017-03-07T12:50:22-05:00

Okay. So what about maid_headdress?

@user_460797: Well, that argument is flawed, because I wasn't...

2017-03-07T12:46:02-05:00

Well, that argument is flawed, because I wasn't aware of the frilled hairband tag.
It also only has 41 tags and the lolita hairband tag is well established with over 4k posts. Just adjust the false definition and maybe aliasing frilled hairband to lolita hairband.

@Benit149: Clearly there needs to be an update since I...

2017-03-07T12:44:07-05:00

Clearly there needs to be an update since I wasn't aware of the lolita hairband tag. If frilled_hairband is a more concrete and intuitive tag name, maid_headdresses are frilled as well, and the wiki for lolita_hairband is strangely color specific, then should the request look like this?

imply frilled_hairband -> hairband
imply frilled_hairband -> frills
imply lolita_hairband -> frilled_hairband
imply maid_headdress -> frilled_hairband
update wiki for lolita_hairband

Or like this?

imply frilled_hairband -> hairband
imply frilled_hairband -> frills
alias lolita_hairband -> frilled_hairband
alias maid_headdress -> frilled_hairband
nuke wiki for lolita_hairband and maid_headdress

@user_460797: Why should we make a distinction based of...

2017-03-07T12:25:50-05:00

Why should we make a distinction based of colors? That looks like a very constructed seperation that only creates a new tag which is already covered by an established one.

@iridescent_slime: > kuuderes_shadow said: > > Lolita hairband...

2017-03-07T12:22:30-05:00

kuuderes_shadow said:

Lolita hairband says the frills have to be white. The likes of post #2053452 (the only time I've used this tag), post #2651051 and post #2573912 don't have white frills.

Either the wiki is wrong or the vast majority of suigintou and tokisaki kurumi posts are mistagged. I'm inclined to go with the former, since we've been using the tag for hairbands with nonwhite frills since long before that wiki definition existed. Either way, the color of the frills is such a trivial distinction. Is this really worth maintaining a separate tag?

@user_441999: > iridescent_slime said: > > Why do we even...

2017-03-07T12:03:44-05:00

iridescent_slime said:

Why do we even have a frilled hairband tag? It looks like a duplicate of lolita hairband.

Lolita hairband says the frills have to be white. The likes of post #2053452 (the only time I've used this tag), post #2651051 and post #2573912 don't have white frills.

Plus frilled hairband is a more intuitive tag name.

@iridescent_slime: Why do we even have a frilled hairband tag? It...

2017-03-07T11:58:02-05:00

Why do we even have a frilled hairband tag? It looks like a duplicate of lolita hairband.

@Benit149: Since the wiki for maid_headdress says it's a...

2017-03-07T11:05:08-05:00

Since the wiki for maid_headdress says it's a frilled hairband, and the frilled_hairband tag itself was made, would it be necessary to imply maid_headdress to frilled_hairband?