[REJECTED] Tag implication: cagliostro_(granblue_fantasy) -> genderswap_(mtf)

@iridescent_slime: > Setsunator said: > > ..Are making the claim...

2018-01-04T21:11:03-05:00

Setsunator said:

..Are making the claim that if a genderswap has more images depicting them in their swapped state, then they should no longer be tagged as genderswap??

I said no such thing. "Default" does not mean "more common in fanart". Just because Ranma-chan appears on this site more often than male-bodied Saotome Ranma doesn't mean his female form somehow becomes the default one.

Is this a rule, or just something you just made up because you feel this is how it should be? If it is a rule, please post the rule here and then we can debate it.

It's a precedent that we have followed for years. Both Osaragi Hazumu and Amatsuka Megumi are characters in a similar situation -- genderswapped before the main events of their respective series -- and we have never tagged them genderswap. We identify them as their "current" sex, not their "original" sex.

@user_441999: > Setsunator said: > > That doesn't work with...

2018-01-04T02:35:17-05:00

Setsunator said:

That doesn't work with genderswaps though. I have never found a single drawing that depicts the actual genderswap.

post #1854515

Now you have.

That aside, though, most images aren't like that, and there are definitely situations (like OreTwi or Ranma 1/2) where the genderswap is very much part of the story. But these do tend to be cases where the character is known well as or primarily as their original gender, and not overwhelmingly as the genderswap state - note, for instance, that osaragi hazumu is not tagged as genderswap.

At the end of the day it's one of those things you just have to draw a line with. What would happen if a character who everyone knows to be one gender suddenly reveals themself to have had a genderswap years in the past, or is hinted to be a past genderswap but not actually stated? And at present the line is drawn in such a way that, from your description, this character doesn't warrant the genderswap tag. The main awkwardness I can see from the current situation is that it would be wrong to then tag an image of the character's original state as "genderswap"...

@Setsunator: > iridescent_slime said: > > You seem to...

2018-01-04T00:39:19-05:00

iridescent_slime said:

You seem to forget that we generally use tags for exceptions to the norm. Most characters on this site aren't dark skinned, don't wear glasses, and aren't usually nude, but we don't tag them all light skin, no glasses, and clothed.

Yes and...?

iridescent_slime said:
So it should be with the genderswap tags.

I agree. We don't tag images with "not_genderswap". We only tag images with genderswap.

iridescent_slime said:
Cagliostro is depicted as female by default and male as the exception, therefore we tag the male cases as genderswaps.

..Are making the claim that if a genderswap has more images depicting them in their swapped state, then they should no longer be tagged as genderswap??

iridescent_slime said:
"Original gender" means nothing; what matters is how characters are depicted during the events of whatever series they belong to.

Is this a rule, or just something you just made up because you feel this is how it should be? If it is a rule, please post the rule here and then we can debate it.

Type-kun said:

We generally tag genderswap when it happens as an artistic liberty, not as actual part of the story.

That doesn't work with genderswaps though. I have never found a single drawing that depicts the actual genderswap. So all we are tagging is the transformed state with the knowledge that these characters are transformed. So all genderswap images are tagged based on story, not because it can actually be seen in the image unless you actually know what the character original sex is.

@Type-kun: > Setsunator said: > > While I agree that...

2018-01-02T01:25:53-05:00

Setsunator said:

While I agree that implication might be the wrong way to go, mass taging most of the images with genderswap should still be applied. It doesn't matter if the character is has been reborn as a female or a male, their original gender still genderswapped. As is in the case of Tanya Degurechaff,he was reborn in a new body, but he is still a genderswap.

I still think that Tanya shouldn't be tagged with genderswap, either. We generally tag genderswap when it happens as an artistic liberty, not as actual part of the story.

@iridescent_slime: > Setsunator said: > > While I agree that...

2018-01-02T00:06:01-05:00

Setsunator said:

While I agree that implication might be the wrong way to go, mass taging most of the images with genderswap should still be applied. It doesn't matter if the character is has been reborn as a female or a male, their original gender still genderswapped. As is in the case of Tanya Degurechaff,he was reborn in a new body, but he is still a genderswap.

You seem to forget that we generally use tags for exceptions to the norm. Most characters on this site aren't dark skinned, don't wear glasses, and aren't usually nude, but we don't tag them all light skin, no glasses, and clothed. So it should be with the genderswap tags. Cagliostro is depicted as female by default and male as the exception, therefore we tag the male cases as genderswaps.

"Original gender" means nothing; what matters is how characters are depicted during the events of whatever series they belong to. Every adult character may have been a child once, but that doesn't mean we're going to tag them all older.

@Setsunator: > keonas said: > > -1 I've actually been...

2018-01-01T21:47:09-05:00

keonas said:

-1 I've actually been campaigning to drop genderswap_(mtf) from Cagliostro altogether.

1. because the actual body has always been female, even if the personality inhabiting it was once male (possibly other things as well)
2. the character has been in a female body for the entire actual duration of the story, apart from lore/history/flashbacks.
As far as i know that is. I don't play the game much but, from the little i did and all the stuff i read on-line this seems to be the case.

Also, yes, not good to implicate to general tags.

While I agree that implication might be the wrong way to go, mass taging most of the images with genderswap should still be applied. It doesn't matter if the character is has been reborn as a female or a male, their original gender still genderswapped. As is in the case of Tanya Degurechaff,he was reborn in a new body, but he is still a genderswap.

@Hillside_Moose: From my limited knowledge of the game, her...

2017-10-01T16:23:24-04:00

From my limited knowledge of the game, her situation is more of a body surf/homunculus than an outright genderswap. That said, the genderswap tag does not apply to Cagliostro and should be removed.

@DanbooruBot: The tag implication...

2017-10-01T16:20:04-04:00

The tag implication cagliostro_(granblue_fantasy) -> genderswap_(mtf) has been rejected.

@kozaki.saya: > keonas said: > > -1 I've actually been...

2017-09-30T21:32:24-04:00

keonas said:

-1 I've actually been campaigning to drop genderswap_(mtf) from Cagliostro altogether.

1. because the actual body has always been female, even if the personality inhabiting it was once male (possibly other things as well)
2. the character has been in a female body for the entire actual duration of the story, apart from lore/history/flashbacks.
As far as i know that is. I don't play the game much but, from the little i did and all the stuff i read on-line this seems to be the case.

Also, yes, not good to implicate to general tags.

There is basically, I think, a single flashback where she isn't in her current body (during the Cagliostro/Clarisse event, if I'm remembering right). We don't know what he even used to look like, since it wasn't even shown in that flashback. It's certain that she used to be a guy, but that doesn't play into anything besides her personality a bit in the game.

So, the tag isn't very useful for Cag outside of conceivably fanart that specifically depicts him before and after creating his new body I guess.

@keonas: -1 I've actually been campaigning to drop...

2017-09-30T18:56:24-04:00

-1 I've actually been campaigning to drop genderswap_(mtf) from Cagliostro altogether.

1. because the actual body has always been female, even if the personality inhabiting it was once male (possibly other things as well)
2. the character has been in a female body for the entire actual duration of the story, apart from lore/history/flashbacks.
As far as i know that is. I don't play the game much but, from the little i did and all the stuff i read on-line this seems to be the case.

Also, yes, not good to implicate to general tags.

@iridescent_slime: > Setsunator said: > > She is a genderswapAnd...

2017-09-30T17:11:54-04:00

Setsunator said:

She is a genderswap

And if she is drawn as a male, what then? See post #2786961 (explicit).

Exceptions like this are why character tags shouldn't implicate general tags. -1

@Laethiel: Definitely against the implication, as even if...

2017-09-30T16:22:15-04:00

Definitely against the implication, as even if we think Cagliostro should normally have the genderswap tag, the implication can still be wrong (and then we have a wrong tag stuck on images until the implication is removed).

Regarding whether Cagliostro images should be tagged genderswap or not, I took a look at a few vaguely similar cases...

Ranma-chan and Tailred images almost all have genderswap tagged. Both characters have a default male form within the series, so it makes sense for them to be tagged genderswap.

Kantai Collection, Kemono Friends, Touken Ranbu, etc. aren't tagged with personification by default: topic #10067, topic #13870. Even if the characters are technically personified warships/animals/swords, the series revolve around personification and that's their normal form.

Tanya Degurechaff isn't tagged genderswap, despite being originally male. Though that's a case of being reborn, rather than a magical change like Cagliostro.

Personally, I'd say that since Cagliostro's normal form within the game is female, she falls closer to KanColle than to Ranma-chan, and I wouldn't normally tag Cagliostro images with genderswap. Though if there were an image specifially about Cagliostro changing to her current body, I'd think it should be tagged with genderswap.

@nonamethanks: Yeah, I agree with BrokenEagle. Generalizing...

2017-09-30T14:47:19-04:00

Yeah, I agree with BrokenEagle. Generalizing cases like these is dangerous, for the same reason why you wouldn't imply blonde_hair to her.

@BrokenEagle98: Not sure we want to start implicating...

2017-09-30T14:43:55-04:00

Not sure we want to start implicating characters or copyrights to general tags like this. I can imagine scenarios where the above would not apply, like a double gender bender MTFTM, or futanari.

@user_525419: > Setsunator said: > > create implication...

2017-09-30T14:38:03-04:00

Setsunator said:

create implication cagliostro_(granblue_fantasy) -> genderswap_(mtf)

Link to implication

She is a genderswap

Care to explain further :3?

@Setsunator: create implication...

2017-09-30T14:36:45-04:00

create implication cagliostro_(granblue_fantasy) -> genderswap_(mtf)

Link to implication

She is a genderswap

The tag implication cagliostro_(granblue_fantasy) -> genderswap_(mtf) has been rejected.