The Problem with Prolific Uploaders

@albert: I think a compromise I will settle on is I will...

2018-01-12T14:49:38-05:00

I think a compromise I will settle on is I will remove references to the uploader on the main post page, but there will be a secondary page you can click into that reveals all the basic information like uploader and most frequent tagger. In fact, this information can probably be embedded in the post history page. So if you really do want to message the uploader you still can. Regardless of whether I hid the uploader entirely you would always be able to infer it anyway from the first tagger.

What I want to eliminate is that immediate gratification of seeing your name on the page, and make it somewhat ambiguous whether you uploaded it or someone else did first.

The uploader information will be replaced with a more flexible identity that takes other factors into account like tagging and noting.

I want to thank everyone for contributing their thoughts to this topic but I think the tone is turning negative so I will close it for now. If you have any additional thoughts or questions or concerns feel free to message me.

@Mikaeri: Well, I feel like I don't have to refute much...

2018-01-12T13:50:27-05:00

Well, I feel like I don't have to refute much given the response in forum #141884, but it is still annoying to see you attempt to even put up this sad facade of what you call "arguing" and putting up a meaningful discussion.

I back nearly all of my observations with things that I know to be generally true, to generally hold for a set of users regardless of their standing here. It makes me rather glad other users are covering for what I'm arguing.

albert has already decided on the course that things will go with this, so it's pointless for me to even say any more. Same as it is for you, obviously, yet you still do it because all you've done is argue points that everyone has already conceded or is willing to deal with. Like mentioned multiple times and failing your ignorance, we don't need the "perfect" solution (in which you keep trying to find some other foreign way). We just need a good one that solves the problem best without expending all the unnecessary effort to implement.

So, let's see.

You arguing is also pretty refined since it basically tells that we don't have a need for a survey because most users don't care and most of them don't engage in uploading at all. That is a pretty clever thing to say, actually. And very hard to dispute. Yet, in a survey you won't get just this reply back that users don't care. But you will also get less popular result which are namely "I want to have them away in the search field and not prominently on the upload page" and "I still want t keep the name like it is". Those are then the more important votings then since then you can examine how the current users are seeing it.

Christ almighty, you are trying to use them as a defense now. forum #141858 already replied to this:

Uploader names are the least interesting thing for visitors. Anyone here without an account only wants to look at animu pictures, nothing else.

QFT

Exactly. It will do nothing t them. And I can tell you that I probably still get most of the credit. I have already told you why this point is not a god reason: Basically, you will strengthen fast and thorough taggers who add 54 tags and the original uploader with 25 tags is left in the dust. This is something I don't want to have happen and I can tell that I could reach this easily because I know the tags and I know when to use a tag. This change does indeed do nothing to these people in this regard, it will promote people like me even further but I don't want to kick someone's true efforts in the dust with it. I don't want this to happen in any case.

Now here is another case where you can't even remember what you've read. I have already addressed this in forum #141783:

Regarding the tagger thing, honestly this is what I think. Maybe we can consider doing a checkmark that makes tag contributions "zero worth" and don't count towards the point count if you're that annoyed (this change could be reversible if you change your mind). There are always solutions that can be improved. Just because you find one bad apple, you shouldn't give up the whole tree. Work with something that sounds decent, and make it amazing.

And, as iterated in forum #141884, this isn't as much a problem as you think it is. If the 25 or so tags are accurate and descriptive enough to find a post without much effort, then it's totally acceptable.

Taggers eventually don't have to search for stuff they can tag. Sunds fun, right? It surely is not. I say that taggers don't really want to tag at all. Especially not if you have someone who just wants to lazily sit around and upload their backlog (your own words; you want to be lazy).
I think this is incredibly offensive to the taggers of the site. I follow one clear thing and that is never to help people who are deliberately lazy. If there is a person who wants to be lazy then do it during your freetime, but I don't want to waste my time on such a person. This is what you are trying to achieve so you can uplad your backlog lazily (those are your own words in this topic and therefore can't be counted as a personal attack.)

You think I'm speaking for only myself here. Well I have no doubt in my mind that I'm lazy, but I also have expended a lot of effort on this site to make it better, and frankly all of that effort is largely mood-based as this is my hobby. You can't force me to do something I don't want, but users like you are definitely trying to force me out of it by continuing to abuse your monopolistic practices.

But take this, for example. nnt has said in my own server that he probably has an even larger backlog than I do. Wouldn't it be nice if he could dump it all out in a few days, then over the next week or so everyone who wanted to tag those works would slowly work on them the coming week until they were all adequately tagged? Anything anyone missed he would then go back and fully tag. This is how things ought to work. Think about the way albert himself uploads, and he's the owner of this site.

Like I said, when people perceive there is work needed to be done on the site rather than outside of it, then these users will find their space for contribution, and start to ease their way into being an uploader. See (4) in forum #141869. This is how you attract more users. If a domain is perceived to has no significant work needed to be done by the majority of the userbase, then naturally there won't be any new contributors because there is no reason to attract new users.

Think about that for a second. You have eliminated tagme. Great? All this has done is shrink that space for potential contribution, so even fewer users become tag gardeners. Then you attract the users that upload the popular non-fanservicey stuff with little to no tags because they see the gallery incomplete yet haven't read or bothered with how to tag more. It's a cycle of frustration that brings down everyone.

I say I am 'lazy', but my efforts to push what I think is best for the site is far from lazy here. You can't possibly hold that against me because you need to feel good about which kind of users you're helping, because everyone's lazy at heart.

If you don't want t tag your submissions to the site then why should I tag it? So you can get away with doing nothing in the end? I consider this as a highly disrespectful point against any tagger.

Don't get so goddamn full of yourself. People upload because they eventually want to see something saved here, not because you have to go on your almighty power trip about everyone has to juggle the responsibilities of x, y, z altogether when they fuck up. You fail to acknowledge that this kind of reasoning makes you part of the problem.

I don't see anything good in uploading a 60 posts big backlog batch that is uploaded in an instant with no tags because you assume that there are people that will tag it. This may work in an ideal work, how it "should" work.
I think this is all well and nicely thought through by Mikaeri and in the core I completely agree with him, but I think he forgets that taggers do also have a life outside of Danbooru.

Well, I do. See above. You have to assume some things when you're trying out solutions, that's what trial and error is. And if the gallery's health is better, guess what? It works, and that's all we care about.

As I've said before, is this about the completion of the gallery or is it only having a well-maintained gallery that's shrinking day by day because of the elites continuing to force their way down everyone else's throats? I want to enjoy this site as a plebeian at heart since I don't find uploading enjoyable. I don't enjoy saltvotes, I don't enjoy wasting my time tagging a post just for someone else to snipe me with the most filler/guesswork tags, I don't enjoy seeing users waste their life with their obsession of staying up late keeping notifications on just to make sure they get their name on something before anyone else.

Most importantly, I don't enjoy continuing to respond to users that post garbage straw man arguments. You continue to try to attack points mentioned by me that I've already conceded. What's this solve in your eyes? That because it isn't totally perfect, it's totally wrong?

But if we want to sacrifice the amount of tags against the amount of uploads then I think this is exactly the way to go.

That's the entire point of this discussion of (2) in the opening post. You're going to have to sacrifice something big to get something even bigger. When people see the need to contribute and a big incentive/reason to, whether they are credit whores or whatever they will eventually fill in that space for us.

I've thought about this problem for a long time, much longer than most users have. A number of users know I've been in support for a nameless system for a long time. But I have fought tooth and nail to posit the argument that this is what users want when the discussion has finally surfaced itself, when I already started to close the door on my way out because this is something I assumed danbooru would never change (hence why I have divested my efforts into making a "Mikabooru" instead). But if danbooru is intent on improving, and albert is willing to discuss the elephant in the room, then I'll be here to support it, and this site might just win me back.

And so I'm glad that many of the users in this thread are starting to agree with me. While they may agree because I'm the one saying it (as I understand I'm a somewhat popular and well-liked user), I want them to agree because they see my line of thinking. As kittey mentioned in forum #141884, now the concern is it potentially being implemented incorrectly, but it's not something that can't be fixed.

I don't know how much danbooru values me as a user. Perhaps a lot, perhaps a little. But I do want this site to continue to succeed, even though weeks ago I've conceded that I really don't give a flying crap if one of these days one of you "rockstar" uploaders suddenly decides to give up and lose all motivation, and then the gallery is poorly tagged and maintained for weeks on end until the gallery gains back its health through the effort of other users that actually start noticing this problem.

@user_525419: > kittey said: > > * maybe he didn’t care and...

2018-01-12T11:36:11-05:00

kittey said:

maybe he didn’t care and only wanted to avoid getting bothered about not tagging.

he needs to git gud, as the Internet would say.

And why should anyone tag such a person's uploads? Because of "name", because you get the credit? Sorry, but tagging takes a lot of time, even as an experienced user.

The report that you have linked does show me mostly one thing: The first five users are also ranking extremely in the upload report.
You have a severe gap between me and Randeel and and another big gap between Fenen and Bisko. Fenen is someone who constantly uses 50 tags as per the other reports. The first 5 users are also very prominent here: https://isshiki.donmai.us/user-reports/contributor_uploads/%21CURRENT.html
To me this report shows the threat that we are straight running into: There are some taggers. But this report is counting 30 days and we have here persons that don't hit 30.000 gentag changes, they don't even hit 20.000 gentag changes. This makes less than 1.000 gentag changes per day. This is not much.
This is the benefit of the current system: It tells users to tag their posts, even if they don't like it. You are getting called out if you tag less than 10 tags per posts as well. Will this notice be taken down again, despite it not being one month old? And most post changes that are currently done are only a few tags every time: http://danbooru.me/post_versions. In other words, one to six tags get added most of time.
Just to put these high numbers into perspective and then I think we see that these numbers aren't actually that high if we take into consideration the time span these numbers are measured in: 30 days.

I don't see anything good in uploading a 60 posts big backlog batch that is uploaded in an instant with no tags because you assume that there are people that will tag it. This may work in an ideal work, how it "should" work.
I think this is all well and nicely thought through by Mikaeri and in the core I completely agree with him, but I think he forgets that taggers do also have a life outside of Danbooru. Yes, they are doing a lot of tag changes (or maybe not all that much taking the numbers into account and gentags:<7 is still full of posts) but if I take tagme and how it always get reduced to 0 again into account then I don't think they want to babysit every upload because the uploader think that it will be done by someone else.
In the end, it all comes down to a time problem. We can argue a lot about approval process and kick each other dust in the faces by saying that someone is an elite or that he is a selfish idiot or is derailing thw topic. It all won't solve the increase of time we have to put into tagging if we still want to have a well-tagged gallery (And I think we want, otherwise the reasn the give taggers more credits is kinda weird).

But if we want to sacrifice the amount of tags against the amount of uploads then I think this is exactly the way to go.

PS:
And yes, my "C" and "O" keys are more or less broken on my keyboard. I try to fix mistakes where I can spot them but I also miss some. I'm sorry for that but right now I can't really do something against it :/

@EB As far as I know the name will be there while the post is pending. That should also include the moderation queue.

@EB: > nonamethanks said: > > It's just the...

2018-01-12T11:05:11-05:00

nonamethanks said:

It's just the complete removal or hiding of a post's uploader without an easy way to find it for non-mod+ users that I think is extremely bad, as it's builders, not mods, that make the tremendous job of contacting new users who are incorrectly tagging/sourcing their posts, and I think it would hurt the site a lot to not be able to guide and help new users become proficient contributors to the site.

Yeah, this is one thing I'm very concerned about. I've contacted users about sourcing before, but I really don't have time to guide every single person I come across. I think it helps to have many people able to notice and reach over these kind of things. Has it really been proposed in here to hide even who made the initial tag and source changes? Because that would be the change that I find most disagreeable and opens the door to completely unnecessary headaches. All tag changes should be just as consistently named as they are now. If we are going ahead with hiding uploader names, then they should at least be completely visible to all approvers and not just mods, as it has potential to complicate the tasks of the former in general (would they still appear in the moderation queue?)

@kittey: > Provence said: > > The goal is of course...

2018-01-12T10:11:18-05:00

Provence said:

The goal is of course desirable but I simply doubt that it really is wanted by a large spectrum.

Spectrum? If you re-read the previous seven pages in this thread and skip all replies by yourself and Mikaeri, you’ll notice that hiding the uploader names is really what multiple users want and they’re mostly worried about it being implemented incorrectly (like builders not being able to help out newbie uploaders and taggers).

In forum #141751 you asked me what I was concerned about and at that time I was undecided and had nothing to add. By now I also support some kind of hiding of uploader names and I’m only worried about the implementation of it.

It will do nothing t them. And I can tell you that I probably still get most of the credit. I have already told you why this point is not a god reason: Basically, you will strengthen fast and thorough taggers who add 54 tags and the original uploader with 25 tags is left in the dust. This is something I don't want to have happen and I can tell that I could reach this easily because I know the tags and I know when to use a tag. This change does indeed do nothing to these people in this regard, it will promote people like me even further but I don't want to kick someone's true efforts in the dust with it. I don't want this to happen in any case.

Please deflate your ego a bit. I have trouble seeing your message.

If the uploader only added 25 tags, then

maybe he didn’t care and only wanted to avoid getting bothered about not tagging.
he needs to git gud, as the Internet would say.

Anyone in the first group will be happy about not having to tag anymore and not having anyone bothering them about it.
Anyone in the second group can learn how to tag better and the forum is there to ask for help. Clicking the upload button faster cannot be learned.

You have said that taggers want to tag in your first or second comment in this topic. But what exactly makes you think that? […] I say that taggers don't really want to tag at all.

I think the Post Change Report disagrees with you and so do multiple messages of other users in this thread, I believe.

Especially not if you have someone who just wants to lazily sit around and upload their backlog […].
I think this is incredibly offensive to the taggers of the site. I follow one clear thing and that is never to help people who are deliberately lazy.

That’s great. You don’t have to worry about usurping anyone’s MVT then (or “leaving them in the dust”, as you just called it). There seem to be enough other motivated users to take care of tagging.

I call point 1 a moot point then because it is the argument of the "silent majority". And this argument is extremely bad.

A great realization. Please stop using it in favor of displaying uploader names (and even including silent visitors in that).

PS: Please fix the “O” key on your keyboard, unless you’re deliberately being too lazy and decided not to help yourself.

@user_525419: > Mikaeri said: > > Because I'm not SAYING...

2018-01-12T09:11:45-05:00

Mikaeri said:

Because I'm not SAYING that.

I'm suggesting that's how things ought to work. That isn't a demand like you think it is. So, yanno, nice projecting and all but I speak from a completely plebeian standpoint when I say that nobody cares because practically all users who don't upload don't care. You are catering to no one by providing that. Instead, it's created the hell we're in right now.

Indeed they do not care about this. If someone doesn't care then it isn't considered a problem fr those people. That's extremely simple logic.
Also who say that it should be like this? That's a very easy thing to say when you are absolutely convinced of your idea (and you are).
I try to argue against this. That doesn't mean that I disagree with you at the core but I think you are laying a lot of heavy things in the communities's mouth this way. This is the problem I have with your arguing. The goal is of course desirable but I simply doubt that it really is wanted by a large spectrum.
You arguing is also pretty refined since it basically tells that we don't have a need for a survey because most users don't care and most of them don't engage in uploading at all. That is a pretty clever thing to say, actually. And very hard to dispute. Yet, in a survey you won't get just this reply back that users don't care. But you will also get less popular result which are namely "I want to have them away in the search field and not prominently on the upload page" and "I still want t keep the name like it is". Those are then the more important votings then since then you can examine how the current users are seeing it.

1. This change does nothing for users that are already very very diligent with their tags. If you are the uploader and the top tagger in a post (you tag it very through, let's say 25+ tags for a fairly detailed post), then you get your due credit. See iphn, who by far still remains one of my favorite uploaders (as he almost always fully tags before uploading). Note my praise for him here and as an aside, the content I sometimes share exclusively to him....

Exactly. It will do nothing t them. And I can tell you that I probably still get most of the credit. I have already told you why this point is not a god reason: Basically, you will strengthen fast and thorough taggers who add 54 tags and the original uploader with 25 tags is left in the dust. This is something I don't want to have happen and I can tell that I could reach this easily because I know the tags and I know when to use a tag. This change does indeed do nothing to these people in this regard, it will promote people like me even further but I don't want to kick someone's true efforts in the dust with it. I don't want this to happen in any case.

2. This change disincentives sniping by trivializing the credit you receive for that post. You are still the "uploader" for that post, but someone else might be the top tagger if you fail to do an adequate and appropriate job of it.

You have said that taggers want to tag in your first or second comment in this topic. But what exactly makes you think that? Yes, you are getting stuff to the site and you can work on a post inside of Danbooru because it was uploaded by someone else. Taggers eventually don't have to search for stuff they can tag. Sunds fun, right? It surely is not. I say that taggers don't really want to tag at all. Especially not if you have someone who just wants to lazily sit around and upload their backlog (your own words; you want to be lazy).
I think this is incredibly offensive to the taggers of the site. I follow one clear thing and that is never to help people who are deliberately lazy. If there is a person who wants to be lazy then do it during your freetime, but I don't want to waste my time on such a person. This is what you are trying to achieve so you can uplad your backlog lazily (those are your own words in this topic and therefore can't be counted as a personal attack.)
Basically it is this section (there should be one thing even more clear but I can't find it right now:

Well, the reason there may need to be a "soft" grace period is so that the gallery can catch up with posts that aren't tagged. But users like myself who have huge (and I mean fucking huge) backlogs don't want to spend hours upon hours trying to work their way through it because they have to tag -- there are users out there that want to tag and potentially "credit steal" from users who don't care about that stuff.

If you don't want t tag your submissions to the site then why should I tag it? So you can get away with doing nothing in the end? I consider this as a highly disrespectful point against any tagger.
Also, this is a huge utopia. Consider the history of tagme. This tag was used on bad tagged posts. Of course they were. Taggers want to tag, though. But no tagger wants to spend on a tag five month to get it erased. I was an extremily gracious sould back then because I thought that having a 54k big request tag is just ugly to look at.
I have made efforts to attract Taggers I knew back then to remove the tag but I wasn't able to find someone at first and I had to ask multiple times in the forums to attract users doing it. But if anything, this shows that taggers don't want to tag a post, especially nt if you just want to make them spend their time on something while you are taking a sunbath in a deckchair next to the pool.
I think that the current system strengthen mintaggers but is also strengthen that every post has a reasonable amount of tags as soon as possible. The new system does nothing with mintaggers but it will severely weaken the tagging aspect if we get people who wants to shove their backlog on the site. I know how much you could potentially upload (and no, I'm not stalking your Pixiv feed) and this amount would be extremely overwhleming. We might have enough "taggers" but if this number keep growing then the efforts won't last for that long.
I think this reason (number 2) is pretty naive.

Now we can say that a high amunt of posts makes a gallery more complete but how good is a gallery where you want to find stuff if the amount of posts that needs tagging is steadily growing?

E: My bad. Forget the last paragraph.

@Mikaeri: > Provence said: > > I'd say it's rather...

2018-01-12T03:54:14-05:00

Provence said:

I'd say it's rather baffling how you get to the conclusions that people have to care about something and what they shouldn't be caring about.
You say that we are the elitist, but that's exactly it: You would then dictating with this change what the community gets to see first and what every user has to care about.
I think that's far more elitist than Danbooru is right now.

Because I'm not SAYING that.

I'm suggesting that's how things ought to work. That isn't a demand like you think it is. So, yanno, nice projecting and all but I speak from a completely plebeian standpoint when I say that nobody cares because practically all users who don't upload don't care. You are catering to no one by providing that. Instead, it's created the hell we're in right now.

Real talk. Practically all of your responses up to now regarding this change have been borderline McCarthyism and "what if"'s. You cannot just refute the logic that explains a certain type of behavior by simply exclaiming that it isn't true because you have seen a very limited instance of it happening otherwise. You go through the pain of pinging several of those users in forum #141801 only for those that show up (Ne and inkuJerr) just to agree that the uploader field is ultimately pretty pointless and removing it levels the field for everyone (forum #141814, forum #141824).

In order to achieve this "user diversity", to make it fair for users of new and old, we need a system which encourages fair uploading by taking your time and thoroughly tagging a post to the best of your ability before clicking submit and making it public. The one who applies the most tags wins.

Well, if you look from different perspective, the removal of names will create a dull, static environment, where every users don't know whose upload is this or that. With this, everyone will be granted with same standing because no users will be known to others for their tendency to upload from certain copyright, tags etc.

Kinda forced, but it works. IMO, you cannot change anything if you're not willing to sacrifice something.

I already provided significant discussion in my own server regarding such a potential change, but if it makes it even easier for anyone to understand this, then basically these are the end results everyone should expect. This has also what made nnt flip his opinion in forum #141842.

1. This change does nothing for users that are already very very diligent with their tags. If you are the uploader and the top tagger in a post (you tag it very through, let's say 25+ tags for a fairly detailed post), then you get your due credit. See iphn, who by far still remains one of my favorite uploaders (as he almost always fully tags before uploading). Note my praise for him here and as an aside, the content I sometimes share exclusively to him....
2. This change disincentives sniping by trivializing the credit you receive for that post. You are still the "uploader" for that post, but someone else might be the top tagger if you fail to do an adequate and appropriate job of it.
3. This change attracts new users because it no longer is a total mistake to just upload a post with little to no tags if a reputable tag gardener attends to it and wishes to "credit steal" that post by fully tagging it before that user. Users that mintag, whether by lack of knowledge or due diligence, won't be punished, and neither will snipers be if they can't get to their post in time.
4. Because of (3), you can expect more users to upload their backlog more in the hopes that other users will "credit" steal their posts instead. The gallery is more complete, and because users now see a necessity to work on the site (by way of tagme or gentag count searches) rather than outside of it (content that is backlogged and isn't saved anywhere). You can also imagine a new influx of tag gardeners becoming uploaders because of such and such due diligence in (1) and (2) depending on their availability.

Like I said in forum #141785, "whenever I write something, I always think about its causes and effects as to whether it is worth expending the resources to, and whether it can be improved on."

We can build on the new problems we might face when trying to address how to correctly weigh the tags on an upload for accuracy and conciseness. Filler tags will get less value (1girl, solo, bangs, cowboy shot), while crucial tags will get more (clothing articles, notable details, composition and basic color tags). We can also safely assume that since the "uploader" field is still searchable, that we can find new users to promote that we trust to generally upload good quality content without name-whoring. That is, we can promote users who do (1), but we won't exactly throw users who do (2) under the bus.

So, essentially, this is shifting the goal for where credit goes. Instead of "post" sniping, you get "tag" sniping. Isn't that miles better? You can complain about someone uploading fast with little to no tags (this already happens), but you can't complain about them "tagging" fast (unless it's a 1up or a pretag, but again not much can be done except for if you introduce post versioning).

And lastly, you forget about all the users that have PM'd albert specifically regarding their opinion because they don't want to disclose it here. Why, then? Because it's intimidating as hell when you consider the users in this thread are all of "reputable" standing, no matter how much you argue otherwise. Anyone who's spent a considerable amount of time on this site is considered a "senior" user, regardless of their account age. Besides that, a certain someone deleted their account three or four times, to the annoyance of many users I'm sure.

@user_525419: > Mikaeri said: > > Don't delude yourself. The...

2018-01-12T01:08:47-05:00

Mikaeri said:

Don't delude yourself. The point of that statement was to say that absolutely nobody should care about uploader names, hence it being the outlier.

Kind of sad, really.

I'd say it's rather baffling how you get to the conclusions that people have to care about something and what they shouldn't be caring about.
You say that we are the elitist, but that's exactly it: You would then dictating with this change what the community gets to see first and what every user has to care about.
I think that's far more elitist than Danbooru is right now.

@Mikaeri: > Provence said: > > InkuJerr did write that....

2018-01-11T21:50:23-05:00

Provence said:

InkuJerr did write that. I noticed this but he did also write that hiding the uploader's name won't really achieve something good.

And he changed his mind. Reread forum #141814 and think about it carefully. You asked for his opinion and he gave it to you. He said he was in favor of a system that credits the user that can steal tag credit first.

And I have visited some user's accounts before and after registering. I always do this when I'm interested in a forum and I want to see who I can expect to find there and what they are doing. If you have another personal experience then this is fine.

Nice anecdote, but I doubt anyone experiences the same thing you do. The users that do are extremely few and in between.

forum #141853

Okay, seriously? Get out of here with that nonsense. It is baffling how you can come to these conclusions.

We also have to take into account that Visitors dn't have the ability to look up the tagging history in order to find out the uploader and maybe they might also not aware of this because it's off-limits for them.

Oh God, they have to create an ACCOUNT?! NO WAY! creating an account is trivial to bits, come on now. here's a D for effort

Also regarding one last thing about the approval process: This issue here is multi-layered and we should look at it from as many perspectives as possible. Saying that something like this derails the topic (and that's coming from the person who is completely convinced about his idea) might be a sign that this issue shouldn't be discussed in their opinion.

"I don't like this user's argument, so I think we should consider EVERYTHING ELSE (which mind you has already been said and inundated in this thread)." clap

Sites don't need users who do the things that you are defending right now. They are not special, and nobody cares about the amount to which they need to feel validated by the system for their shit behavior and habits.

@Mikaeri: > Provence said: > > Hey, if something is...

2018-01-11T21:35:27-05:00

Provence said:

Hey, if something is displayed as not being cared about then you also can't say that it ultimately hurts when it is present.
Why should we risk to lose something with this reasoning.

Don't delude yourself. The point of that statement was to say that absolutely nobody should care about uploader names, hence it being the outlier.

Kind of sad, really.

@user_525419: > kittey said: > > Big assumption backed by...

2018-01-11T20:02:24-05:00

kittey said:

Big assumption backed by user feedback, like from inkuJerr, who is one of the users you pinged.

(Emphasis by me.)

“There’s this user I don’t know on that site that I visit to look at animu pictures. I’m totes interested in what else this completely random person uploaded!”
Don’t be ridiculous; you’re grasping at straws now. Uploader names are the least interesting thing for visitors. Think about how often you clicked on a user name on a site that you don’t have an account on.

InkuJerr did write that. I noticed this but he did also write that hiding the uploader's name won't really achieve something good.
He put the biggest emphasize of sheya. An artist that isn't scoring to high or too low with score but gets stuff done with around 15 to 25 scorepoints. I think inkuJerr wants to upload from this artist and that he isn't that interested in the score. He just want the art . But yeah, that's what I read from this statement. @inkuJerr (better pinging before misunderstanding).

And I have visited some user's accounts before and after registering. I always do this when I'm interested in a forum and I want to see who I can expect to find there and what they are doing. If you have another personal experience then this is fine.

@kittey: > Provence said: > > The biggest assumption is...

2018-01-11T19:44:08-05:00

Provence said:

The biggest assumption is that people don't upload that much because they get sniped and the stuff is taken or because they see no land t upload
[…] But I have to say that this strongly relies on the point that new users only want to upload this stuff, but I have outligned enough users on the last page who just want to upload stuff they like and that they want to share and they aren't necessarily interested in Pixiv rush or high scoring uploads

Big assumption backed by user feedback, like from inkuJerr, who is one of the users you pinged.

inkuJerr said:

I'm not sure if I technically count as a "new uploader" (My account is nearing it's one year anniversary though I only started posting in early August and I only just got promoted a few weeks ago) but I might as well ask what I want anyway.

What I desire the most during my stay on Danbooru is that I want to actually have a chance at uploading stuff from my favorite (Touhou) artists. But given how the craze for people uploading all of the good stuff is now compared to back then (you know, with all the sniping nowadays) I don't know how I could ever get my wish.

[…] although sometimes a post's popularity may merge in with what I like, like peanut butter and jelly. That often screws me over by snipers.

(Emphasis by me.)

Provence said:

We also have to take into account that Visitors dn't have the ability to look up the tagging history in order to find out the uploader and maybe they might also not aware of this because it's off-limits for them.
I see that uploader names aren't that prominently during searches but if such a person wants to do such a search.

“There’s this user I don’t know on that site that I visit to look at animu pictures. I’m totes interested in what else this completely random person uploaded!”
Don’t be ridiculous; you’re grasping at straws now. Uploader names are the least interesting thing for visitors. Anyone here without an account only wants to look at animu pictures, nothing else.

@user_525419: > iridescent_slime said: > > This is a...

2018-01-11T19:40:45-05:00

iridescent_slime said:

This is a potential problem that deserves more attention, especially if we're also talking about removing the one week probation period for new accounts. I often try to contact new uploaders with DMails about what they're doing well and what they can stand to do better, and I hope other contributors do the same. If the uploader's identity is completely hidden, this will come to a complete stop as it becomes impossible to send private feedback, or even tell which uploaders are inexperienced and which are simply being inconsiderate/lazy.

If the aim of this exercise is to bring in new users and turn them into valuable contributors, removing all feedback from the educational aspect of the process seems a bit counterproductive.

I abslutely agree with this since I do the exact same thing.

@iridescent_slime: > nonamethanks said: > > It's just the...

2018-01-11T19:36:40-05:00

nonamethanks said:

It's just the complete removal or hiding of a post's uploader without an easy way to find it for non-mod+ users that I think is extremely bad, as it's builders, not mods, that make the tremendous job of contacting new users who are incorrectly tagging/sourcing their posts, and I think it would hurt the site a lot to not be able to guide and help new users become proficient contributors to the site.

This is a potential problem that deserves more attention, especially if we're also talking about removing the one week probation period for new accounts. I often try to contact new uploaders with DMails about what they're doing well and what they can stand to do better, and I hope other contributors do the same. If the uploader's identity is completely hidden, this will come to a complete stop as it becomes impossible to send private feedback, or even tell which uploaders are inexperienced and which are simply being inconsiderate/lazy.

If the aim of this exercise is to bring in new users and turn them into valuable contributors, removing all feedback from the educational aspect of the process seems a bit counterproductive.

@user_525419: > Nobody cares about uploader names except...

2018-01-11T18:43:25-05:00

Nobody cares about uploader names except other uploaders.

Hey, if something is displayed as not being cared about then you also can't say that it ultimately hurts when it is present.
Why should we risk to lose something with this reasoning.

albert said:

With regards to taggers not wanting public credit: there's already a privacy flag that we could use to hide this information. But I also want to flip it on its head: how many users are there that don't want to upload something because they don't want visible public credit? Probably not many, but I just want to point out we're making a lot of assumptions because we're so used to the status quo.

Exactly: We are making tons of assumptions here. The biggest assumption is that people don't upload that much because they get sniped and the stuff is taken or because they see no land t upload (The latter isn't Danbooru related).
But is this really all we have to say about this? This seems to be the biggest problem assumed by Albert and Mikaeri. But I have to say that this strongly relies on the point that new users only want to upload this stuff, but I have outligned enough users on the last page who just want to upload stuff they like and that they want to share and they aren't necessarily interested in Pixiv rush or high scoring uploads
I say that it isn't and my solution to this would probably be causing much less potential harm to the site. We absolutely can't foresee what is going to happen if we put this extremely drastic change through. I can only say that we should act rational and ask the community as a whole before doing this rush.

Albert is still the site's owner of course. I am fairly aware that the results of a potential survey don't say that we have to go this way. But they should serve as a small guide what the cmmunity thinks of this.
But I have t say this: If the majority says that they don't care abut the uploader's name then do we really have a problem with the name being displayed? Of course we don't have a problem. If there were a problem then people would care about this and this should apply t anyone. If we say that no one cares then this ultimately doesn't matter how fast a post is uploaded.
But erasing the name or hiding it has some searchability problems that were already laid out by @EB. We also have to take into account that Visitors dn't have the ability to look up the tagging history in order to find out the uploader and maybe they might also not aware of this because it's off-limits for them.
I see that uploader names aren't that prominently during searches but if such a person wants to do such a search.

Also regarding one last thing about the approval process: This issue here is multi-layered and we should look at it from as many perspectives as possible. Saying that something like this derails the topic (and that's coming from the person who is completely convinced about his idea) might be a sign that this issue shouldn't be discussed in their opinion. But what I find funny is that I have received a mail from the DanbooruBot where exactly this was done and it seems that this content has been deleted by the original poster by now. I can only see it via the Bot's mentions now. Simply saying that something isn't a problem might as well be interpreted from closing one's eyes because one is to convinced about his wn ideas.
I won't copy&paste the section that was deleted (since it is deleted or at least I can't find it in the relevant post) but I think that this pretty much is it when we say that something is "derailing" the topic abut a multi-layered by saying that "the problem is x, not y". Maybe the problem really is y and not x, but the person who said this is completely convinced that x is the problem.
Just saying that we have to look who wrote something when someone says that something seemingly doesn't fit.

@nonamethanks: > Kikimaru said: > > Oh, one more thing I want...

2018-01-11T17:59:23-05:00

Kikimaru said:

Oh, one more thing I want to chime in on (sorry for accidental derailing):

I, also, mostly only upload what I like.
The fact that my own tastes don't seem to align with the approvers anymore is really fucking me up though. I've been stuck at 10/day for months now, and even when I go on a "good run" (all posts approved) I don't know if I'm uploading better posts, or if I just got lucky with the posts aligning with approvers' tastes.

Weirder still, I created an account on e621 (a furry booru) and I'm now in good standing there :|

Putting this under spoiler as it's a bit off-topic for this thread:

Without jumping on the hate bandwagon, as I realize it'd be easy to attack you with an opinion based on your infamous reputation rather than actual analysis of your uploads (as I think you're a good user all things considered due to pretty much all of the other areas of the site you contribute to):

I think what's fucking your ratio up is mostly that you upload either very western-looking posts or very niche content. It's not even necessarily a matter of quality, just that most of what you upload is either a pretty niche fetish, like futa or furry, or very western-inspired or looking (an example would be post #2930074, for which the coloring is really off-putting as it's very reminiscent of an american cartoon - I guess it's mostly because of the very hard contrast and bright color). It doesn't help, I think, that from what I can see your uploads often consist of copyright that often have a hard time getting approved as most people are interested in "weeb" anime and very asian-looking art rather than american-renowned anime with western-ish style. An example of this is DragonBall, Pokemon, Street Fighter fanart drawn by artists that typically do normal western content.

It's typical for furry and futa to be much harder to have approved, as most approvers are not interested in it unless it's of exceptional quality. It's really a general problem not limited to those but that also notoriously applies to male focus, or even to non-fetish posts like chibi, or even doraemon (as it happened to me).

There's also some bad anatomy concerns. For example:
Ass&tits poses like post #2932995, post #2940942, post #2931363 are hard to get approved because they often show pretty serious anatomical issues like impossible torso twists. Ith may not be the case for some of the ones I linked, but if you combine it with an art that is too western-looking then the deletion becomes certain. The same goes for pictures with very large asses or breasts - most approvers find anything bigger than low-end huge breasts off-putting, and this is also true (even more so in fact) for huge asses - just look at how often robutts posts are flagged.

It's hard to pinpoint an exact cause, and I also do think that some approvers are quick to immediately hide your posts in the queue or filter you out by default, but in general it does seem that the kind of content you post would be more at home on e621 or another booru specialized on western art than danbooru. And I don't mean this with malice or malintent.
And as wuv u said, danbooru has a much, much stricter anatomy quality treshhold than any other booru, especially ones like e621.

One last time, I can't stress this enough, western art is pretty much certain to be deleted if it has little to no trace of eastern inspiration. Examples: post #2907968 and post #2918248 and post #2919408 and post #2931363 and post #2897952...

I doubt you'd have a hard time getting to 50 upload slots if you only constantly uploaded strictly eastern-inspired art from pixiv or twitter for two months straight, but that doesn't seem to be what you're interested in doing or I suspect you would've already started doing that by now.

@ceres: > Kikimaru said: > > Oh, one more thing I want...

2018-01-11T17:49:04-05:00

Kikimaru said:

Oh, one more thing I want to chime in on (sorry for accidental derailing):

I, also, mostly only upload what I like.
The fact that my own tastes don't seem to align with the approvers anymore is really fucking me up though. I've been stuck at 10/day for months now, and even when I go on a "good run" (all posts approved) I don't know if I'm uploading better posts, or if I just got lucky with the posts aligning with approvers' tastes.

Weirder still, I created an account on e621 (a furry booru) and I'm now in good standing there :|

Nobody on e621 cares about quality as long as the images contain breasts or asses. I don’t think that this is relevant to this thread in any way. If you want to post about this, make a new thread.

@Kikimaru: Oh, one more thing I want to chime in on (sorry...

2018-01-11T17:26:29-05:00

Oh, one more thing I want to chime in on (sorry for accidental derailing):

I, also, mostly only upload what I like.
The fact that my own tastes don't seem to align with the approvers anymore is really fucking me up though. I've been stuck at 10/day for months now, and even when I go on a "good run" (all posts approved) I don't know if I'm uploading better posts, or if I just got lucky with the posts aligning with approvers' tastes.

Weirder still, I created an account on e621 (a furry booru) and I'm now in good standing there :|

@nonamethanks: Edit: removed big rant because I realized I had...

2018-01-11T16:02:04-05:00

Edit: removed big rant because I realized I had misunderstood some points.
To clarify:

It's just the complete removal or hiding of a post's uploader without an easy way to find it for non-mod+ users that I think is extremely bad, as it's builders, not mods, that make the tremendous job of contacting new users who are incorrectly tagging/sourcing their posts, and I think it would hurt the site a lot to not be able to guide and help new users become proficient contributors to the site.

As for only displaying prominently the "MVU" in a post, if an user tags a post well and is also the uploader and is still listed as "Most Valuable User", I have no problem with the changes albert mentioned, as that I think will incentivate people in also tagging better on upload and will probably slow down sniping. This would also means people who are tagging correctly would not see any change, so we wouldn't have new users get discouraged because their credit is being stolen.

Though maybe there should be a treshhold for the credit to switch, otherwise I'm concerned we'd have people tagging nose, ears, fingers and other useless tags that still fall on the middle of the distribution curve just to make count, which would cause much frustration. The automatic process for deciding how to weight these tags and which one to ignore is probably going to be a real pain in the posterior to figure out, as we have so many of them that have a good count and yet only apply to certain instances of relevancy.

@Mikaeri: > The moderation process is another complex...

2018-01-11T15:17:45-05:00

The moderation process is another complex issue that's outside the scope of this topic.

If that discussion is needed, to fix problems where they don't really exist, then we can have it somewhere else.

albert said:

From a user's perspective, with the current arms race, I think uploader information is not useful. The problem is uploader does not work like bookmarking or retweeting. A post can only have one uploader, and currently that is determined by who got to it first. Is that information useful? All it really tells you is that the uploader was in a position to check Pixiv during rush hour, or they have access to tools that expedite discovery and uploads. If you want to find good art, there are better ways to find it than searching by uploader.

It's just a byproduct of history that uploader information is so prominent. I find it interesting that E-Hentai doesn't even display this information unless you go digging for it, and it isn't even exclusive because it will list multiple uploaders for the same comic. Another uploader may in fact get more downloads because they bothered to translate the title or add artist info.

Completely agree. This is why I keep mentioning that the uploader name is incredibly trivial, contrary to what many in this thread will continue to argue. Never have I thought to search under another user's name for content unless I'm moderating it, or I'm interested in seeing their tagging and uploading habits. Other than that, I literally don't care, and I'm not supposed to care.

So all uploader information is useful for is an incentive to get people to upload. But isn't that strange? People who upload just to get credit...this is a perverse incentive that encourages behaviors that are antithethical to the site (flooding, mintagging, camping).

With regards to disincentivizing uploads, I don't really see it. All it really disincentivizes is mintagging.

Pretty much as I said in forum #141778. It's the wrong incentive to promote, especially for a site that places a lot more emphasis on who tags a work rather than the one who provides it. We yell a lot about new users that mintag something that we know would've been more diligently taken care of had it been uploaded by a more prominent user, going so far as to write them negatives or even issue temporary bans when instead we should at least be helping them and not making them feel so frustrated with the system. All they want to do is to just 'share' something without feeling like an idiot.

It's rush hour. I have a bunch of art I want to upload. Under the proposed system, in order to get proper credit, I will have to spend time on each post describing it accurately with tags. Maybe someone else will upload something in your queue before you. Too bad? This is how a majority of users feel when they try to upload something. At least now it's more equitable.

Honestly, that's what I find so surprising about many of these responses, especially users in support of it say. Here's the thing, and let me copy this from my write-up:

Note: this is written in markdown, not Dtext

Most users that are Member-level to Gold-level are fully aware of the site's functionality and features that allow them to search posts, favorite stuff, and make basic edits. However, what they rarely care about is the dynamic in which new posts show up, that are different from the way posts show up on their respective art communities (pixiv, nicoseiga, etc). Not a lot of them know enough (or really care enough) to go through these sites themselves or follow the artists themselves, and if they do, it's a notably trivial thing. It isn't uncommon for users to take that route of getting practically all their anime-style art from danbooru, reddit, discord servers, or other repost sites, because some of these native source sites make it difficult for new users to.

Let's talk about these users for a second. These people are also the ones that care the *least* about who gets credit on a post because most people don't *care* who uploads what as long as its up, and as long as its well tagged. And that should be the way things are -- when you as a *consumer* are simply using the site to digest content, you shouldn't look at what people upload to find content you like because that is both ineffective and **irrelevant**. The only reason you might care is if someone starts submitting bad quality or inappropriate content and that needs to be pointed out.

Take me for example. Want to know what I like? Just search [`fav:Mikaeri`](/posts?tags=fav%3AMikaeri) or [`ordfav:Mikaeri`](/posts?tags=ordfav%3AMikaeri), and it is a much better representation of that than what I upload. Hell, want an even better representation of what I like? Just eavesdrop into my favorite groups. That's where I kinda stash everything I *really* like.

I favorite a lot of the stuff I upload because I treat my uploads as if I didn't upload them. **If you only see [`user:Mikaeri`](/posts?tags=user%3AMikaeri) then naturally you miss out on all the stuff that I would've wanted to upload**. Just take a look at [`fav:Mikaeri -user:Mikaeri`](/posts?tags=fav%3AMikaeri+-user%3AMikaeri).

I say this because I want to establish this crucial point that I believe isn't far from being totally right: **Next to nobody should care about who uploads what, long as it isn't garbage or tagged like garbage.**

In fact, the only reason to have an "uploader" field is if a user uploads his own edits of an image (or their own image if it's a self-upload) and that must be properly determined if nobody knows where else exactly it come from, or where some derivation of it comes from. There are alternate approaches to this and it, to me, is fairly trivial.

There is a legitimate criticism here: an uploader could just copy the tags from an inferior version that was uploaded earlier and already tagged. In practice I'm not sure how bad this really is: the original tagger already got credit on the earlier post; the new post is well tagged; the new uploader gets credit for taking time to find a better version and associate it with the sample version. In any case I think it's still better than the current situation.

Also I'm not sure how common it really is. There were 27,000 uploads from Pixiv since December. Only 3,500 of them are marked as having children. And not all of those are necessarily dupes.

I refer to this as "1upping" in my guide. Frankly, unless you introduce some sort of post versioning (where posts that share visual identity but differ in resolution/image quality are merged into the same post), this problem will always exist. It's not that big of one, but that's something hiding the uploader name can't necessarily solve in and of itself. Only post versioning would do that.

Months ago, the route would be, for some approvers, to just replace inferior uploads from Twitter/Pawoo with their superior counterpart from pixiv/seiga/nijie, but this had its own fair share of problems. I've been extremely vocal about it (to the chagrin of a number of staff members), but that's a discussion for another day. But this was not what you could call any sort of "post versioning".

But, continuing on.

With regards to taggers not wanting public credit: there's already a privacy flag that we could use to hide this information. But I also want to flip it on its head: how many users are there that don't want to upload something because they don't want visible public credit? Probably not many, but I just want to point out we're making a lot of assumptions because we're so used to the status quo.

Ah, I forgot to mention that too -- there's plenty of content I would love to upload and share but don't want my name visibly on it. This was the major problem for me months ago when I was cleaning up pixiv samples -- I did not want to upload content I didn't like, but I didn't think anything could be done because an upload always had to have someone's name attributed to it.

But this basically summarizes my concerns. Again I'm thinking that this sort of system is counterproductive to what we should be doing as users who archive and curate -- there are plenty of other feel-good avenues that require a lot less effort put in than booru, and the only reason to do so here otherwise is because perhaps it just looks better to put your name on something that has a lot more permanence.

So, really, it's something that has dissuaded me from contributing any further. If you ask my honest opinion, then here's what I see.

Nobody cares about uploader names except other uploaders.

Like, really. Even taking into account EH, while EH does have an uploader name, a lot of the time it's kind of pointless as some of the same series and story arcs, the galleries that have some sort of relation, have different uploaders. My translation group (aside from Scrubs) lets any member who they feel has contributed the most in a single release upload it (unless they don't want it). Nobody takes it that seriously unless you're following a user that consistently puts out good scans of content that's either less often curated or hard to provide. And that's rare and in-between.

When I think about it, even all the stuff I upload on my account for Scrubs I would rather attribute to my group than my name myself.

EDIT: Let me add to this. The reason why EH might attribute a lot more credit to an uploader is because it is more difficult than just finding a few images in a gallery and then submitting it to the gallery. A lot of EH contributors take the time out of their life to provide raws, scanlations (teams upon which spend hours doing this tedious work), ripping content from sites that make it difficult to find... And a number of them simply just pay out of their pocket to a download site like DMM or DLsite to provide their content. Or, more recently, Patreon/Enty/Fantia/Fanbox.

But going back to the main point -- again, literally nobody cares except other uploaders. And maybe moderators if they're looking for someone to promote, but we're not removing uploader names entirely, we're just hiding them (at least this is my perception for now). Nobody cares if a post shows up five seconds earlier or five seconds later, as long as two things apply:

It's not garbage. (bad quality content)
It isn't tagged like garbage.