On the matter of serafuku + sailor_collar

@Unbreakable: I don't mind nuking the colour_serafuku tags at...

2018-01-15T12:19:49-05:00

I don't mind nuking the colour_serafuku tags at all but I still don't like nuking the serafuku tag itself, black school uniform would be filled with gakuran posts though since they are always black.

@nonamethanks: > ion288 said: > > Um. Is there anything...

2018-01-15T12:14:16-05:00

ion288 said:

Um. Is there anything preventing people tagging a black serafuku with black skirt and black shirt/blouse? It seems like the most intuitive option to me.

On the specific matter of serafuku, yeah, the black serafuku tag is pretty much useless. A black school uniform I guess would have instead to include eventual jackets, shirts, pants, and the like.
I see how it's going to be tricky to define, though. Does it still count as black if only the wing collar of a white shirt is sticking out of a black jacket? What about neckwear color or hats?

There's the matter of group pictures, where removing tags like these makes us lose precision, but then again we already discarded them for colored eye/neck/leg/footwear, so there'd be a precedent to just kill black_serafuku.

@iridescent_slime: > ion288 said: > > Um. Is there anything...

2018-01-15T12:05:54-05:00

ion288 said:

Um. Is there anything preventing people tagging a black serafuku with black skirt and black shirt/blouse? It seems like the most intuitive option to me.

That's how I've always done it. Same goes for black suit and its ilk: black jacket and black pants suffices nicely.

@ion288: Um. Is there anything preventing people tagging...

2018-01-15T12:03:34-05:00

Um. Is there anything preventing people tagging a black serafuku with black skirt and black shirt/blouse? It seems like the most intuitive option to me.

@nonamethanks: So it seems the consensus is to remove the...

2018-01-15T11:40:09-05:00

So it seems the consensus is to remove the clause in the wiki so far. I'll wait a couple of days and do it.

Now on to the real question: does serafuku even express something that is not already expressed by shirt/blouse + sailor collar? I was under the impression previously that it denoted a certain specific kind of uniform but after checking the search and the definition it also applies to basically anything that has a sailor collar attached and looks like it's being worn by a young woman.

I'm not even sure it holds any meaning on danbooru, as it's used for a wide variety of things from kizuna ai's sleeveless vest/shirt thing to these sweaters - doesn't help that as Tapnek said the term's just engrish to shimakaze's crop top.

Perhaps someone else can chime in on how exactly the tag's supposed to be used? Because as the discussion keeps going and by looking at the search it basically looks like it's being applied to anything that has a sailor collar and doesn't look like a dress.
Are there any cases where school uniform + sailor collar doesn't equal serafuku?

As for colored uniforms, I actually like the idea. I don't see how it mess with the gakuran tag, and in fact it would even help finding non-black cases, as black school uniform would be a separate tag only to use in conjunction, not an implication or an alias.

Note that gakuran is very specifically defined, so it wouldn't get axed following an eventual nuking of serafuku.

@user_525419: > NWF_Renim said: > > Not going to really care...

2018-01-15T03:18:00-05:00

NWF_Renim said:

Not going to really care at this point on keeping that clause in the sailor collar wiki, but I will show strong support for simply nuking the serafuku tags. I feel the serafuku tag will be nothing more than detrimental in the long run with retention rather than with outright removal.

Why nuking the serafuku tag? Simple, it's unnecessary and it's existence will encourage the creation of ambiguous sounding <color>_serafuku tags. For example, we have a black_serafuku tag, but that tag doesn't actually indicate that the collar is one color and it doesn't indicate the the full outfit is one color (the wiki states only the shirt or blouse needs to be black), which leaves a lot of room for mistagging. Furthermore it's existence has probably also discouraged the creation of a much broader, and likely better, "black_school_uniform" tag for a uniform (top and bottom) being black. In short, the existence of the serafuku tag will actually be nothing but trouble as in this current environment it will breed tags that will discourage much better unambigious tags from being used, such as <color>_school_uniform, <color>_shirt, or <color>_sailor_collar tags.

I guess this is one thing @CyberWire should have more insight in but I'd say that the collar could be any collar but the shirt + skirt/shorts have to be mainly black. If there are stripes at the sleeve end shouldn't really matter all that much.
post #2986924 is pretty much perfect for this: White sailor collar and with a single stripe at the end. The rest is still black. That includes: Shirt/Blouse + Skirt/Shorts.
If only the upper body shows a girl wearing a sailor-collared shirt then it's also safe to assume that she wears a skirt or shorts (similar to bikini/bikini top).

Having a blak_school_uniform tag for this would highly dillute the gakuran tag (post #2982273 for example). Cut off the girls in this post and you'd have only boys wearing a gakuran school uniform and these are mostly black.

@NWF_Renim: I have less issue with the sailor_dress tags...

2018-01-15T01:03:07-05:00

I have less issue with the sailor_dress tags than the serafuku tag, but visibly is there any case of a "black serafuku" that wouldn't fall under a black_shirt sailor_collar search? (tangential related, given the tagging usage of the shirt tags, might make more sense to simply make the blouse tag a sub-type of the shirt tag, which would reduce the issue of having both a black_shirt sailor_collar and black_blouse sailor_collar search).

Is the dress component attached to the sailor shirt portion in the Yuru Yuri school uniform? A lot of those are also being tagged sailor_dress, but if it's simply a shirt or similar over the dress component, they probably shouldn't be under the sailor dress tag either.

edit: Just going to drop resistance on this, so long as we maintain not allowing any color variant tags for the serafuku tag, and instead use <color>_school_uniform tags instead for school uniforms where the top and bottom are one color.

@Unbreakable: > NWF_Renim said: > > Well at minimum the bulk...

2018-01-15T00:39:41-05:00

NWF_Renim said:

Well at minimum the bulk (roughly 2/3rd) of the images under sailor dress are from KC, and the vast bulk of those are questionable if they're actually dresses. So roughly 2/3rds of the images under the tag may be mistagged.

Yeah, there are a bunch of characters from Kantai Collection wearing clothes that are hard to judge if they are short dresses or long shirts at times, I know I've had problems deciding which tag to use now and then.

@NWF_Renim: > Unbreakable said: > > Those images should be...

2018-01-15T00:35:43-05:00

Unbreakable said:

Those images should be tagged with sailor shirt instead and people using a tag wrong isn't enough reason to nuke that tag.

Well at minimum the bulk (roughly 2/3rd) of the images under sailor dress are from KC, and the vast bulk of those are questionable if they're actually dresses. So roughly 2/3rds of the images under the tag may be mistagged.

@Unbreakable: > NWF_Renim said: > > We shouldn't rule it out...

2018-01-15T00:21:37-05:00

NWF_Renim said:

We shouldn't rule it out honestly. People do seem to become overly dependent on just using sailor_dress on any depiction (post #2987425). There are plenty of examples where you can't identify that it is in fact a dress, and forcing users to have to actually apply the dress tag would force them to have to recognize the image as a dress, instead of letting non-dress depictions trickle into the dress tag due to an implication.

Those images should be tagged with sailor shirt instead and people using a tag wrong isn't enough reason to nuke that tag.

@NWF_Renim: > Unbreakable said: > > Well with that...

2018-01-15T00:18:15-05:00

Unbreakable said:

Well with that combination you get both two-piece uniforms and sailor dresses so it's worse imo, and should we scrap the sailor dress tag too since it's only a combination of dress and sailor collar?

We shouldn't rule it out honestly. People do seem to become overly dependent on just using sailor_dress on any depiction (post #2987425). There are plenty of examples where you can't identify that it is in fact a dress, and forcing users to have to actually apply the dress tag would force them to have to recognize the image as a dress, instead of letting non-dress depictions trickle into the dress tag due to an implication.

@Unbreakable: > NWF_Renim said: > > But then what's the...

2018-01-14T23:59:23-05:00

NWF_Renim said:

But then what's the point of the tag? It'd be better to simply have it as a black_school_uniform +sailor_collar search then.

We don't need to subdivide the serafuku tag, because it'd be much better having the subdivision higher at the level of school_uniform.

Well with that combination you get both two-piece uniforms and sailor dresses so it's worse imo, and should we scrap the sailor dress tag too since it's only a combination of dress and sailor collar?

@NWF_Renim: > Unbreakable said: > > Well I think that...

2018-01-14T23:47:29-05:00

Unbreakable said:

Well I think that black serafuku (and other colour_serafuku tags) should be changed so that both top and bottomwear need to be that colour, that's the way I'm using them at least and it makes more sense imo.

But then what's the point of the tag? It'd be better to simply have it as a black_school_uniform +sailor_collar search then.

We don't need to subdivide the serafuku tag, because it'd be much better having the subdivision higher at the level of school_uniform.

@Unbreakable: > NWF_Renim said: > > Not going to really care...

2018-01-14T23:46:14-05:00

NWF_Renim said:

Not going to really care at this point on keeping that clause in the sailor collar wiki, but I will show strong support for simply nuking the serafuku tags. I feel the serafuku tag will be nothing more than detrimental in the long run with retention rather than with outright removal.

Why nuking the serafuku tag? Simple, it's unnecessary and it's existence will encourage the creation ambiguous sounding <color>_serafuku tags. For example, we have a black_serafuku tag, but that tag doesn't actually indicate that the collar is one color and it doesn't indicate the the full outfit is one color (the wiki states only the shirt or blouse needs to be black), which leaves a lot of room for mistagging. Furthermore it's existence has probably also discouraged the creation of a much broader, and likely better, "black_school_uniform" tag for a uniform (top and bottom) being black. In short, the existence of the serafuku tag will actually be nothing but trouble as it will breed tags that will discourage much better unambigious tags from being used, such as <color>_school_uniform, <color>_shirt, or <color>_sailor_collar tags.

Well I think that black serafuku (and other colour_serafuku tags) should be changed so that both top and bottomwear need to be that colour, that's the way I'm using them at least and it makes more sense imo.

@NWF_Renim: Not going to really care at this point on...

2018-01-14T23:43:29-05:00

Not going to really care at this point on keeping that clause in the sailor collar wiki, but I will show strong support for simply nuking the serafuku tags. I feel the serafuku tag will be nothing more than detrimental in the long run with retention rather than with outright removal.

Why nuking the serafuku tag? Simple, it's unnecessary and it's existence will encourage the creation of ambiguous sounding <color>_serafuku tags. For example, we have a black_serafuku tag, but that tag doesn't actually indicate that the collar is one color and it doesn't indicate the the full outfit is one color (the wiki states only the shirt or blouse needs to be black), which leaves a lot of room for mistagging. Furthermore it's existence has probably also discouraged the creation of a much broader, and likely better, "black_school_uniform" tag for a uniform (top and bottom) being black. In short, the existence of the serafuku tag will actually be nothing but trouble as in this current environment it will breed tags that will discourage much better unambigious tags from being used, such as <color>_school_uniform, <color>_shirt, or <color>_sailor_collar tags.

@chilled_sake: For one it's just wrong that you can't specify...

2018-01-14T23:41:08-05:00

For one it's just wrong that you can't specify the color of a sailor collar. Blue sailor collar for instance doesn't imply sailor collar. The idea is you would use those color tags like you would legwear tags.

That said, I support having all the colored sailor collar tags imply sailor collar as well as using sailor collar for serafuku. This is a case where the tag-what-you-see is not being applied because...people just think that it just shouldn't? Not clear on the reasons why.

So let's say you run the search "sailor_collar -sailor -serafuku -sailor_one-piece_swimsuit -sailor_bikini"...you will get 20,000 posts which are either literally only the sailor collar or fit into one of those excluded tags. So why not permit the sailor collar tag to be used in cases where...there's a sailor collar, and then use one of the tags for garments collared in the sailor style? If we come across something where one of those tags doesn't fit, that's the point where we create a new sailor-based tag rather than crippling sailor collar for the slimmest of exceptions.

Also not sure what we have sailor shirt for. In most cases it just returns results for clothes that are just serafuku. It could have some practicability if the subject weren't wearing a shirt, but it seems that serafuku + bottomless/no_skirt would be sufficient there. Should we remove sailor_shirt?

Strong -1 to nuking serafuku and the other or making arbitrary new color tags

+1 to amend wiki to allow sailor collar to be used wherever one is present

@tapnek: Just remove the clause and maybe have serafuku...

2018-01-14T22:29:36-05:00

Just remove the clause and maybe have serafuku implicate sailor collar. This should have been done in the first place because serafuku is just Engrish for sailor fuku anyway.

@Unbreakable: For now I'll just give a strong -1 to nuking...

2018-01-14T22:12:02-05:00

For now I'll just give a strong -1 to nuking the serafuku tag, might write a longer post later.

@nonamethanks: Opening this thread after a discussion in topic...

2018-01-14T22:06:00-05:00

Opening this thread after a discussion in topic #12858 because it seems it deserves its own thread.

The wiki for sailor collar currently states "For clothing with a sailor-style collar which are neither a school uniform nor a sailor uniform."

Not only is this ignored by everyone (Post count for sailor_collar school_uniform : 16056, and in the last month 464 out of 1706, ie a little over 1/4rd of last month's serafuku uploads), it's also a restriction that makes impossible to search for serafuku with a certain collar color (for example, to search for astolfo wearing a serafuku with a different collar color than pink).
It's not possible in these cases to use black serafuku and the like as that only denotes the color of the clothing fabric, not of the sailor collar.

My proposal is to remove that clause from the serafuku tag, as it's

unintuitive: people are just going to keep using it because it falls under "tag what you see", and because they don't really expect a random tag like that to have a clause. This also makes trying to garden it and keep it in check an impossible job which keeps the tag in a permanent limbo;
restrictive: for the reasons stated above - namely it makes it impossible to search for colored collars in serafuku;
arbitrary: because if there's a fear of sailor_collar becoming useless if added to serafuku, then how come nobody ever mentions sailor dress? Should that be excluded too? We also have sailor shirt. What about sailor bikini or sailor_one-piece_swimsuit, which implicate it? Even after cleaning up the tag from serafuku and keeping it clean, there's another myriad of sailor_variants that already pollute the tag and make it impossible to have a useful search, unless one goes for sailor_collar detached_collar or another similar specific search. Should sailor_collar become a tag for sailor-collared clothings that don't have their own specific tag instead?

Other suggestions I've seen are:

make new colored tags strictly for school uniform sailor collars, something like black-collared serafuku, which is a suggestion I don't really agree with as it's never going to work for what I said above. People see a sailor collar, they're going to tag a sailor collar if the tag exists, for the same reason we have tons of eyebrows and eyes in posts where the tag doesn't belong (see topic #14889 for discussion on the matter). I'd still prefer this to the current state of the sailor collar tag, however.
nuke the serafuku tag which is an option I really don't know what to think about, so I'll leave the arguing over it to others.

Opinions?

Also pinging @NWF_Renim and @BrokenEagle98 because of the discussion in the other thread.