The bulk update request #2593 is pending approval.

create implication zzz -> onomatopoeia

Reason: zzz is an onomatopoeia.

Do we have guidelines for this tag? I didn't realized we tagged them at all. Japanese onomatopoeia / giongo are close to ubiquitous in manga-style drawings with text. This seems like it could very easily get swamped if not narrowed down to something specific.

Shinjidude said:

Do we have guidelines for this tag? I didn't realized we tagged them at all. Japanese onomatopoeia / giongo are close to ubiquitous in manga-style drawings with text. This seems like it could very easily get swamped if not narrowed down to something specific.

We also tag them sound_effects. As far as I can tell, the two tags are in fact used interchangeably.

iridescent_slime said:

We also tag them sound_effects. As far as I can tell, the two tags are in fact used interchangeably.

Not completely - see topic #14301.
I would argue even unconventional sound effects count as onomatopoeias but it was rejected.

nonamethanks said:

Not completely - see topic #14301.
I would argue even unconventional sound effects count as onomatopoeias but it was rejected.

I read through that thread and topic #13835, and I'm aware of the theoretical differences between the two tags, but in practice there doesn't seem to be much distinction between the two. Most posts in ~onomatopoeia ~sound_effects just use one tag or the other based on the uploader's preferences even when both tags could apply.

I think onomatopoeia and sound effects are both bad tags. "This post has sound effects" is something that is extremely common and usually extremely uninteresting by itself. Tagging sound effects on every comic ever is just as bad as tagging text on every comic ever.

Onomatopoeia is hardly any better, it's basically the same thing as sound effects, and in practice, the tag would just be an umbrella tag for random unrelated sound effects. Things like zzz, nyan, kupaa, pomf, etc. If you really want that, you can always do ~zzz ~nyan ~kupaa ~pomf. I highly doubt anyone would actually want to do that search.

An umbrella tag is basically just a shortcut for an OR search. Whenever I see an request for an umbrella tag implication, I always ask myself if an OR search for the subtags is something anyone would actually want to do. If the answer is no, then that's a strike against the implication.

evazion said:

I think onomatopoeia and sound effects are both bad tags. "This post has sound effects" is something that is extremely common and usually extremely uninteresting by itself. Tagging sound effects on every comic ever is just as bad as tagging text on every comic ever.

Onomatopoeia is hardly any better, it's basically the same thing as sound effects, and in practice, the tag would just be an umbrella tag for random unrelated sound effects. Things like zzz, nyan, kupaa, pomf, etc. If you really want that, you can always do ~zzz ~nyan ~kupaa ~pomf. I highly doubt anyone would actually want to do that search.

An umbrella tag is basically just a shortcut for an OR search. Whenever I see an request for an umbrella tag implication, I always ask myself if an OR search for the subtags is something anyone would actually want to do. If the answer is no, then that's a strike against the implication.

+1

evazion said:

I think onomatopoeia and sound effects are both bad tags. "This post has sound effects" is something that is extremely common and usually extremely uninteresting by itself. Tagging sound effects on every comic ever is just as bad as tagging text on every comic ever.

Onomatopoeia is hardly any better, it's basically the same thing as sound effects, and in practice, the tag would just be an umbrella tag for random unrelated sound effects. Things like zzz, nyan, kupaa, pomf, etc. If you really want that, you can always do ~zzz ~nyan ~kupaa ~pomf. I highly doubt anyone would actually want to do that search.

An umbrella tag is basically just a shortcut for an OR search. Whenever I see an request for an umbrella tag implication, I always ask myself if an OR search for the subtags is something anyone would actually want to do. If the answer is no, then that's a strike against the implication.

The overwhelming majority of onomatopoeia don't have tags, though, and there are so many variants that such a search is way beyond possible should such tags be added. You'd need thousands of them.

I don't really care about this implication either way, but that argument depends on being able to search for each variant, which you can't - and given that many would probably only have a tiny handful of posts on the whole site, you probably never will.

Ive been adding sound effects as a replacement for translation request (after having it confirmed by a translator) to tell people that it isnt something translation worthy being written.

In my mind onomatopoeia should be sound made by someones voice as opposed to environmental sound effects, so pomf would be a sound effect while nyan would be an onomatopoeia.

ion288 said:

In my mind onomatopoeia should be sound made by someones voice as opposed to environmental sound effects, so pomf would be a sound effect while nyan would be an onomatopoeia.

This is sort of a backwards definition though. Non-voiced things like "snap", "bang", "pop" are stereotypical onomatopoeia (things like "meow" / "nyaa" do fit as animal sounds). Words without definitions that are typically always voiced though like "yay" or "whee" are interjections though, not onomatopoeia. I don't think we should follow this guideline as it goes against definition and would likely be confusing.

My apology on the edit, I accidentally hit "edit" instead of "reply" again, but didn't change anything.

Based of the discussion so far, it seems best to just nuke these tags?

Lacrimosa said:

Based of the discussion so far, it seems best to just nuke these tags?

Please no. There's stuff like jojo_no_kimyou_na_bouken sound_effects that is not searchable otherwise.

nonamethanks said:

Please no. There's stuff like jojo_no_kimyou_na_bouken sound_effects that is not searchable otherwise.

Maybe. What about these awkwardly sounding tag?

Well I agree with what was said above, in that there's no tag for most sound effects so an umbrella tag is the only way to search for the unnamed ones currently.
It doesn't make sense to me to have an umbrella tag for "everything not named" and not include zzz etc in it though. Doing 10+ tag OR searches seems pretty silly.

But, on the other hand, having large tags inside an umbrella with the rest would drown them. No idea how to tackle the problem.

If there are interesting sound effects that don't have a tag, then make a tag for them. What I'm saying is, if these tags didn't exist, nobody would say "hey, let's make an umbrella tag for zzz and kupaa and Jojo memes and every random fuck noise". These are all a bunch of different things you wouldn't naturally want to search for together.

Its not that uncommon to have images (not talking about comics) with text as parent and the textless image as a child. There should be tags to differentiate them.

If there is enough relevant text I can just put a translation request but if its just little sfx stuff that seems excessive.

The textless tag is used for that.