Myon tag

@S1eth: konpaku_youmu_(ghost) dual_persona is what you...

2012-02-11T19:14:48-05:00

konpaku_youmu_(ghost) dual_persona is what you want.
Some noise is in there since the everyone images often feature both lily_white and lily_black = dual_persona.
konpaku_youmu_(ghost) dual_persona -everyone

Serlo said:
2) Character without feature

The pool for Kogasa without her umbrella was deleted since it was just a tatara_kogasa -karakasa_obake tag search.
However, for some reason, the Flexible Yoshika pool is still here even though that one is also just a miyako_yoshika -zombie_pose tag search.
I don't actually think that there is need for tags/pools to describe a character WITHOUT their gimmick/feature. It should be understandable how ridiculous it is if I suggested a rumia_without_spread_arms or kirisame_marisa_without_broom tag.

@Serlo: I definitely agree that if character_(feature)...

2012-02-11T11:15:57-05:00

I definitely agree that if character_(feature) is tagged at all, it should be always tagged, otherwise it's subjective and should be a pool.

Personally, for characters like Youmu and Kogasa, I'd want to search for 5 different kinds of image.

1) Character with feature
2) Character without feature
3) Feature without character
4) Personified feature with or without character

The issue is, aside from possibly group 4, they should all count as 1 character. The current compromise is that you can't find group 1 with chartags:1. Making the feature tag a general tag means you can't find group 3 with chartags:1, which I think is the superior compromise.

Edit: I do find it a little sad that I can't search for Youmu's spellcard from 12.3 where her ghost half takes a human form and mimics the player's movement and attacks. I've seem images where her ghost half is helping her cook, but I can't find them now. (I suspect they were in 200 yojana in a flash?)

@S1eth: Resurrecting this thread since it has been...

2012-02-11T10:18:36-05:00

Resurrecting this thread since it has been discussed here as well.

Neo X created the anticipated tarara_kogasa_(umbrella) with the same idea as Rantuyetmai had for the myon tag:

Tag used used when either, tatara_kogasa's umbrella body, act's independently from her youkai body, or only her umbrella body is shown in the picture.

The reason why I dislike this is the same as the reason against tagging myon only when it does "something interesting". If I were to use such a tag, I would tag every image with the umbrella in it.

And even then, unlike for Youmu's ghost half who sometimes appears together with other hitodama, the karakasa_obake tag is entirely sufficient for Kogasa.

@Blossop: I think we should first clearly define the...

2011-01-28T00:56:35-05:00

I think we should first clearly define the pools we want to search for. I think we can only devise a system of tags that searches for each of those pools with a minimum of effort afterwards.

@Cyberia-Mix: Can we agree on cleaning/stopping to tag myon...

2011-01-22T10:03:01-05:00

Can we agree on cleaning/stopping to tag myon as hitodama or ghost?
As already said, it's gonna be a pain to find images like post #679825 where myon and regular ghosts are mixed together.

@DschingisKhan: > Log said: > Apparently some of you don't...

2011-01-17T08:54:13-05:00

Log said:
Apparently some of you don't "get" it but kogasa is the umbrella not the girl.

While the thought of searching for tatara_kogasa_(girl_body) is amusing, you're bonkers if you think real people consider the umbrella to be of primary interest. Even after a bit of gardening, it seems about a third of the kogasa images we have are -umbrella. Clearly, canon is not the deciding factor here, regardless of what we feel about that.

@rantuyetmai: > Log said: > Apparently some of you don't...

2011-01-17T08:32:52-05:00

Log said:
Apparently some of you don't "get" it but kogasa is the umbrella not the girl.

Not how we use it on Danbooru. And, haha, someone will freak out if we tag the umbrella-less posts as tatara_kogasa_(girl).

@Log: Apparently some of you don't "get" it but...

2011-01-17T08:25:41-05:00

Apparently some of you don't "get" it but kogasa is the umbrella not the girl.

@rantuyetmai: > S1eth said: > We don't have to concentrate...

2011-01-17T08:22:16-05:00

S1eth said:
We don't have to concentrate only on Youmu here, you can also discuss Kogasa's case or Medicine Melancholy and Su-san. It is widely believed that Su-san is the doll that was abandoned (like the umbrella) and Medicine_Melancholy is the same as Kogasa's body.

I guess we can talk about them here, just wanted to reach a conclusion for myon first so at least something came out from all that discussion.

First with Kogasa, everyone seems comfortable not tagging it with anything more specific than umbrella, even though it is distinctive and can be absent in a post with an umbrella tag (e.g post #799080, post #604730).

^ that's what strongly impressed me that people just like to tag myon because it's shorter and sweeter than ghost, but nevermind.

Now are we going to tag something like general:tatara_kogasa_(umbrella)?

DschingisKhan said:
Looks that way. We still seem to be up in the air about whether it should be a tag char:myon_(active) or a pool:Touhou_-_Interesting_Myon, but that's ultimately a minor detail (precedent seems to be tag).

On that note, should just flat myon be aliased to myon_(ghost) to help reinforce that there's now a distinction?

I don't mind a pool or tag, that would need more input from everyone. We don't have to alias anything though, just use myon like always.

@DschingisKhan: > rantuyetmai said: > So the consensus is...

2011-01-17T08:20:55-05:00

rantuyetmai said:
So the consensus is making it a general tag?

Looks that way. We still seem to be up in the air about whether it should be a tag char:myon_(active) or a pool:Touhou_-_Interesting_Myon, but that's ultimately a minor detail (precedent seems to be tag).

On that note, should just flat myon be aliased to myon_(ghost) to help reinforce that there's now a distinction?

@rantuyetmai: > S1eth, Suiseiseki, Ph.D said:Alright, as long...

2011-01-17T07:54:33-05:00

S1eth, Suiseiseki, Ph.D said:

Alright, as long as the chartags count are solved I have no problem tagging myon at all. So the consensus is making it a general tag?

@Ph.D: I'd say keep the Myon tag the same and make a...

2011-01-17T06:52:39-05:00

I'd say keep the Myon tag the same and make a new general tag like interesting_myon, then implicate it to myon. Similar to what Log said about pooling those guys.

interesting_myon should be able to deal with the aforementioned problems, though newcomers to Danbooru and taggers will have problems finding those posts, as this tag is probably only used in Danbooru, and you can only see what's interesting by looking at the posts, not by tags. In case the tag is established enough, I don't see any problem then, only in the initial phase of the tag.

Being a general tag, the chartags problem's solved. I don't know much about tags in general, so this might not work.

...wait a minute, this is completely the same as pooling them. I didn't see anyone disagree with Log about pooling them; you guys just ignored his post.

Also, Myon is more widely known as "Youmu's ghost", not "Youmu's ghost that's doing something unusual". I certainly don't want new users getting weirded out just because "myon" in Danbooru has the second meaning.

So in short, my stance on this is: do not change Myon and pool the interesting ones or make a new tag for them.

@Suiseiseki: We could make a new general tag for Myons that...

2011-01-15T06:51:25-05:00

We could make a new general tag for Myons that aren't doing anything and use the tag to be the "tag what you see" side of things. This would free up the Myon tag to be used like the Pyonta tag.

Implicate Myon to whatever the new tag is, as Myon will always be Youmu's ghost half but not the other way around.

I've previously searched Myon when searching for a picture that I knew he was in but not doing anything, so I'd like to keep the ability to search specifically for Youmu's ghost-half. I suppose konpaku_youmu ghost would work, but there's going to be false positives or negatives. Example: one could theoretically have a picture without Youmu's human-half that contains her ghost-half, but the ghost-half isn't doing anything of particular interest (like floating just in panel to imply Youmu's presence, something like post #695305).

@S1eth: In reality, konpaku_youmu consists of the body...

2011-01-15T02:56:00-05:00

In reality, konpaku_youmu consists of the body and the soul (myon). On Danbooru, konpaku_youmu is mainly used to tag the body instead of the whole character. The body is enough to identify the character. Myon is only to be used for Konpaku Youmu, therefore myon is also sufficient to identify Konpaku Youmu. If you are not sure that a ghost is Konpaku Youmu's half, you are also not sure that the ghost is myon.
This "meta knowledge" is the kind that is always used to identify characters. (besides, it's in the wikis of both tags)
The same applies to Tatara Kogasa's human body and (still tagless) umbrella, both being visible distinct, but together the same character.

rantuyetmai said:
People don't normally tag myon when there's more characters together with Youmu is also a proof they don't see it as one. They mostly use it instead of the ghost tag when there is a ghost prominent enough in the images.

I can't verify that without looking at all images in 47 pages of konpaku_youmu -myon chartags:>5 individually. 2 images on the first 20 were missing the tag. (this small sample is useless by itself). I attribute missing tags to laziness. Since there are many characters, they tag the canon characters, the artist and copyright and call it a day. The number of people who care if Youmu is fully visible in a group image or not might not be that high.

rantuyetmai said:
No implication, similar to why we don't implicate sword_of_hisou to hinanawi_tenshi.

The sword_of_hisou can be used by any character, not just Hinanawi Tenshi.
Suwako's hat can be worn by anyone.
If Tatara Kogasa's umbrella is used by someone else, Tatara Kogasa is always in the image. (don't say meta-knowledge!)
If myon is alone or with someone else, (half of) Konpaku Youmu is always in the image.

I'm against that implication myself for the reason that the Konpaku_youmu tag is often used synonymously for the body, not the whole character, and not being able to find myon alone. So even though it's technically correct, it would cause more problems. Implicating sword_of_hisou to Hinanawi_Tenshi is just wrong and I hope you understand the difference I tried to explain above.
Now myon as a general tag is something I'd favor, but it is always closely tied to Konpaku_Youmu, as said above.

We don't have to concentrate only on Youmu here, you can also discuss Kogasa's case or Medicine Melancholy and Su-san. It is widely believed that Su-san is the doll that was abandoned (like the umbrella) and Medicine_Melancholy is the same as Kogasa's body.

@sgcdonmai: > S1eth said: > Tagging myon only when "doing...

2011-01-14T17:16:26-05:00

S1eth said:
Tagging myon only when "doing something interesting" also messes with the chartags:1 because no matter what myon does, Youmu+Myon is ALWAYS one character.

Meta-knowledge.

@rantuyetmai: > Cyberia-Mix said: > Why do I need to make...

2011-01-14T14:22:57-05:00

Cyberia-Mix said:
Why do I need to make another reply after I've been captain obvious in my entire last post?

Because those are not convincing, as I pointed out.

Cyberia-Mix said:
If you can see the legitimacy in splitting general/character myon then how can't you see the legitimacy in splitting myon from regular hitodamas?

Now this is a valid argument. Fine, I guess turning myon into a general tag is the best compromise then.

S1eth said:
Tagging myon only when "doing something interesting" also messes with the chartags:1 because no matter what myon does, Youmu+Myon is ALWAYS one character.

Visually, no.

That's why I say it is a feature. Myon acting as a real character is a small, manageable number of posts. Making the whole thing a character though, I have to go chartags:2, chartags:3, chartags:4, blah blah + somethings else twice (with and without myon tag) when cleaning something. Double the work.

People don't normally tag myon when there's more characters together with Youmu is also a proof they don't see it as one. They mostly use it instead of the ghost tag when there is a ghost prominent enough in the images.

S1eth said:
if myon were a general tag and implicated konpaku_youmu

No implication, similar to why we don't implicate sword_of_hisou to hinanawi_tenshi.

@Shinjidude: It seems like a bad idea to implicate myon to...

2011-01-14T14:19:06-05:00

It seems like a bad idea to implicate myon to konpaku_youmu, they are visually distinct and hence separably taggable entities, despite their canonical identity. I also don't see why Myon should be considered anything other than a character, since pets and the like are always tagged as such. I don't see why high overlap should change the rules in that regard.

@S1eth: Tagging myon only when "doing something...

2011-01-14T13:41:05-05:00

Tagging myon only when "doing something interesting" also messes with the chartags:1 because no matter what myon does, Youmu+Myon is ALWAYS one character. Even in cases where Youmu uses her ability to shape her ghost/phantom-half into a human form, although solo changes to 2girls and clone/dual_persona, the chartags:x stay the same, rightfully so.
Now I can count on Youmu+Myon being assuredly chartags:2 (I'd actually prefer chartags:1 for all of them, so I can find ALL Youmu solo images with that query, but solo will have to take care of that once tagged on all of them.).
On the other hand, if myon were a general tag and implicated konpaku_youmu (because if you identify something as myon, you also know that it is Youmu), we couldn't find the depictions of myon -konpaku_youmu, the soul without the body, anymore, those which we can identify as Youmu only because "the artist said so".

edit:Cyberia-Mix: I have my doubts about tagging characters (the tag type) in ambiguous cases. Assuming we didn't have a myon tag (or it were aliased to konpaku_youmu because in another dimension, we use it like the Japanese), would you tag post post #137943's ghost/hitodama konpaku_youmu? Control Question: post #667096 for the question above.

@Cyberia-Mix: Why do I need to make another reply after I've...

2011-01-14T13:30:16-05:00

Why do I need to make another reply after I've been captain obvious in my entire last post?

rantuyetmai said:
moriya_suwako hat : lots of that specific hat, but then stuffs like post #815610 or post #347890 get mix in. no_hat doesn't help

I did mention "no_hat or alternate costumes". The latter had no example because I couldn't even find a picture of Suwako with a non-specific hat (e.g. not a santa_hat) that wasn't made after pyonta.
Both of your examples have their own tag beside hat and both fit under alternate_costume.

rantuyetmai said:
konpaku_youmu ~ghost ~hitodama: lots of myon, but stuffs like post #569790 or post #495974 get mix in, with the total number of 13 image (I create that tag to do the survey, might delete later)

I was obviously not going to fetch examples for that because it was said in the perspective of tagging all occurrences of inanimate myon as hitodama, my point being that you certainly don't want to have hitodama drowned in a sea of myons or vice-versa, pretty much like it's currently nearly impossible to know if you'll find an actual frog on a post tagged frog ~kochiya_sanae ~moriya_suwako. Ambiguity.
If you can see the legitimacy in splitting general/character myon then how can't you see the legitimacy in splitting myon from regular hitodamas? Also, see forum #37950.

rantuyetmai said:
It's a hitodama, a ghost, just tag it so. The same reason we don't create some name for Yuyuko's outfit just to find some posts of her in Japanese clothes that aren't kimono nor yukata.

You can already with alternate_costume.

rantuyetmai said:
More so, how do you define Myon for people to tag?

I don't think it's any harder than with pyonta.
And there are borderline cases with everything. Borderline hitodama/myon should typically have both tags.
post #828749 - not really uncommon imho (about the style)
post #452358 - looks enough like myon to have it tagged, maybe along with ghost (it's like tagging red liquids on Flandre as blood when it could just be cherry juice)
post #562539 - Myon is specifically assumed to stand out from other hitodamas, that's why it's tagged, therefore this one is just hitodama
post #131510 - I'd say mistagging, because Komachi meets hitodamas herself
post #137943 - for being so big it's obviously myon or made after it (and therefore enough to tag it as such)

@rantuyetmai: > Shinjidude said: > I'm not really...

2011-01-14T09:21:56-05:00

Shinjidude said:
I'm not really understanding the issue here.

+1 to Log and others to keep it as it has been.

Please state why you would choose that, or encounter my reasonings.

The problem it's causing is inaccurate character count. Not only solo Youmu, but also in images with more characters together with her - people are very inconsistenly (not)tag Myon in these cases.

I don't randomly make up a thread just to waste everyone's time. It's fucking up my search and effort to garden tags a lot, when I rely on character count to do. I want a solution.