Name of tag for metal nuts

@jxh2154: Did these: create alias bolts -> bolt create...

2012-09-03T11:16:17-04:00

Did these:
create alias bolts -> bolt
create alias nuts_(food) -> nut_(food)
create alias nuts_(hardware) -> nut_(hardware)
create alias lightning_bolts -> lightning_bolt
create implication computer_screw -> screw
create implication tapered_screw -> screw

@anon153: This conversation seems to be dead. I guess...

2012-08-29T00:52:58-04:00

This conversation seems to be dead. I guess I'll try to edit the wiki soon in ways the make the most sense. Basically, this will include the conclusions that can be easily understood.

@anon153: With the size of out List of disambiguation...

2012-08-06T19:31:10-04:00

With the size of out List of disambiguation pages growing, it appears that the only sensible way to organize the tags is to create another ambiguous tag and arrange the tags as follows:

Create alias bolts -> bolt
Create alias nuts_(food) -> nut_(food)
Create alias nuts_(hardware) -> nut_(hardware)
Create alias lightning_bolts -> lightning_bolt

Create implication computer_screw -> screw
Create implication tapered_screw -> screw

I would choose to use nut_(hardware) rather than nut_(fastener because nuts are sold as hardware at Home Depot, rather than being categorized as a fastener.

@jxh2154: I really feel like bolt screw is something we...

2012-06-08T18:29:40-04:00

I really feel like bolt screw is something we don't have to define so strictly. It'll never be tagged perfectly even if we do, so I'm about ready to call "common sense!" and leave it at that.

If the head has a place for driving it in with a screwdriver, it's probably a screw.
If not it's probably a bolt.
If it's not like #1 but not usually called #2, then call it whatever most people call it.
If there's a debate on some rare corner cases, fight it out in a steel cage death match over an active volcano.

Thankfully this is not an image site for categorizing every shape and manner of fastener, so I don't think we'll have a huge number of really ambiguous images.

@ghostrigger: for possible candidates of ambiguous entries @...

2012-06-07T12:25:55-04:00

for possible candidates of ambiguous entries @ forum #69625

@Shinjidude: Ambiguous tags are no longer coded separately...

2012-06-07T12:22:25-04:00

Ambiguous tags are no longer coded separately in the database. They are incredibly rare now in any case, so I doubt Albert will revive the ambiguous flag and add a color for them.

An alternative though would be to use the Danbooru Miscellaneous Tweaks greasemonkey script and add a "styleTags(tags, style)" entry for the list of ambiguous tags. At that point the only issue is populating and maintaining the list. This is probably something we could add to a page on the wiki to collect them all.

@Alignn: Could we have a fourth colour for tags? So...

2012-06-07T05:47:26-04:00

Could we have a fourth colour for tags? So ambiguous tags that are not to be used are immediately distinct in the list.

@anon153: > Serlo said: > I thought nuts -> nut would be...

2012-06-06T14:52:57-04:00

Serlo said:
I thought nuts -> nut would be easy enough to add, so anyone who uses it gets pointed to the correct tag via the wiki quicker. The alternative (in my eyes) would be two wiki pages. But if you think such a simple detail that might help someone is unnecessary, then leave it out.

However, on second thought, I've realised that even nut_(hardware) and bolt_(hardware) won't do, because there are many different kinds of nuts and bolts: The bolt on a lock or latch, rivets, screws; there are many different kinds of nut and this is clearly about the kind you screw).

Create alias nuts_(screw) -> nut_(screw)

Create alias nuts -> nut_(screw)

Create alias nut -> nut_(screw)

Create alias bolts_(screw) -> bolt_(screw)

Create alias bolts -> bolt_(hardware)

Create alias bolt -> bolt_(hardware)

Create alias screws -> bolt_(hardware)

Create alias screw -> bolt_(hardware)

Create alias nuts_(food) -> nut_(food)

Create alias lightning_bolts -> lightning_bolt

I think I'd rather see them all aliased one way so the mistake becomes even easier to spot when reviewing your tags. Although this means that when the tagger doesn't think or check and uses nut to tag food not hardware, then rather than all those mistakes being gathered in one place for easy fixing, they'll be mixed in with correctly tagged uploads.

And yes, obscure characters with simple names should have qualifiers in their tags.

Is it a problem to have a list of tags that we have to regularly clean up as part of maintenance? Right now, we already have to occasionally clean up mosaic and re-tag pictures as either mosaic art or mosaic censor.

@anon153: > Serlo said: > I think I'd rather see them all...

2012-05-26T09:36:02-04:00

Serlo said:
I think I'd rather see them all aliased one way so the mistake becomes even easier to spot when reviewing your tags. Although this means that when the tagger doesn't think or check and uses nut to tag food not hardware, then rather than all those mistakes being gathered in one place for easy fixing, they'll be mixed in with correctly tagged uploads.

I would have no preference for either choice of nut (food) or nut (fastener) for an alias target.

Another thing I'd like to mention is what you'd want done with the other entries in the list of disambiguation pages. For consistency, would you like to request for the tags all of those disambiguation pages to be aliased? The list excludes old artist names because it serves no purpose to alias them.

@user_201502: RTFM: Differentiation between bolt and screw...

2012-05-24T23:49:56-04:00

RTFM: Differentiation between bolt and screw (Wikipedia).

Serlo said:
Also, what's an evil_nut? post #944399

See this Puella Magi Wiki article (SPOILERS).

Back on topic: how about nut_(fastener)?

UPDATE: I've created Wiki entry for evil_nut.

@Shinjidude: It could just be my personal experience, but I...

2012-05-24T20:43:20-04:00

It could just be my personal experience, but I still would never and have never heard of a small machine screw being refereed to as a bolt, stove bolt or otherwise. It sounds wrong to me.

Given the fact that "machine screws" are untapered, and "lag bolts" are tapered, (even though they have alternative names), I don't see how you can argue for tapered/untapered being any less subjective than any other metric. Both are extremely common and well accepted names for their referents. It might be regional, but "stove bolt" seems to me to be a very uncommon way to refer to that type of fastener.

I also don't see any compelling argument against using a constellation of features to best classify the name. Yes it will be somewhat subjective, but given the (lack of) definition formally given to bolts vs screws, you are going to get that no matter how you go (as I point to above even with the tapered definition you prefer). By using multiple factors at least you will minimize the risk of something atypical in only one feature overly influencing the use of one label vs another that every other feature would prefer.

Another thing to consider is situations where the fastener is in use and as such only the head visible. By your approach such a situation would be untaggable, as it is literally impossible to determine if the embedded tip is tapered or not. That in itself would suggest that the head shape and drive method at least factor into the tagging process.

@NWF_Renim: > Serlo said: > You can use tappered_screw if...

2012-05-23T23:06:03-04:00

Serlo said:
You can use tappered_screw if such an image ever appears, but there are hardly any images with nuts and bolts in them as it is.

post #1135114 and a good number of the images with Kumagawa Misogi are good examples of tapered screws and this image is also a good example of why using things like head shape and stuff serves as a poor standard to classify them. As without the tapered end, it would be visually identical to a "bolt."

@Serlo: Oh just call them all bolts or screws and have...

2012-05-23T22:51:04-04:00

Oh just call them all bolts or screws and have done with it. You can use tappered_screw if such an image ever appears, but there are hardly any images with nuts and bolts in them as it is.

@NWF_Renim: You're still relying on a horribly subjective...

2012-05-23T22:41:12-04:00

You're still relying on a horribly subjective things such as size in the definition. If you enlarge the thing you're having a problem with, it becomes pretty much visually identical to a bolt. Bolts can have round heads, can have slots. The style of the head does not classify it as a bolt or screw. It should also be pointed out that "machine screws" are also called "stove bolts." A computer screw is nothing more than a shortened "machine screw"/"stove bolt." Lag bolts are also called "Lag Screws," so that's hardly a good example.

The only thing that isn't subjective is tapering, so while you can undervalue it, it is the only thing of real value. Everything you're trying to hold as having value has no real value as both bolts and screws share them. Bolts can have all the same head types as screws, so it does zero to actually classify them using such things.

If this is how it's going to go, I would rather the classification be only on the only true visual dividing aspect, which is tapering. If the naming of "bolt" is the problem, then just lump everything under "screw" with a sub-tag for tapered screws, as once you enlarge it, it's the tapering that is the only thing that really matters.

@Shinjidude: My problem is that a round-headed, slotted,...

2012-05-23T22:07:50-04:00

My problem is that a round-headed, slotted, course threaded, but untapered machine screw , would never be called a bolt to my mind, despite the fact that it doesn't have a pointed tip.

The fact a bolt is usually large and has a hex head is much more important in my mind.

Consider the lag bolt , which is probably technically a screw (and is by your definition). I still feel much more comfortable naming it a bolt than I do the small machine screws above.

I guess in short, I feel that while being tapered does play into it, it's by far one of the less important indicators and in no way sufficient by itself to discriminate between things that would be commonly called bolts vs screws.

As for using 3 tags, or wood_screw, or things along those lines, I feel they would be entirely unnecessary. Just tag what you see with whichever prototypical definition matches best of the two tags we are discussing.

I have no qualms with seeing wood screws and machine screws under the same tag, they are very similar things in appearance and function. They are referred to by the same noun, so why not use the same tag?

@NWF_Renim: The terms are used frequently interchangeably,...

2012-05-23T21:18:04-04:00

The terms are used frequently interchangeably, over time it is easy to end up calling one over the other and accept errors as being "correct," so your argument isn't that great as it could have simply been an error in naming over time that was accepted. Screw also refers to the motion used to tighten it, it would not be unreasonable to call them after the motion.

Sure it connects things using a "screw" type connection between objects, but that doesn't mean though that we should label it as such, when visibly it is no different from a bolt. The only thing you're trying to accomplish with your division is making a jumbled mess by mixing both tapered and non-tapered "screws" under the same tag. If you're going to go your route we'd need 3 tags then, cause we'd then need a "wood_screw" tag simply to be able to divide between tapered "screws" and your computer "screws." I see no reason to force a 3rd tag, when we could simply use 2 tags perfectly fine.

@anon153: > NWF_Renim said: > We have a very clear cut...

2012-05-23T21:05:27-04:00

NWF_Renim said:
We have a very clear cut divider, size should not matter at all. It should only be based on whether it is tapered or not, you're the ones making this more complex than it needs to be.

If that was the case, then computer thumb screws would be called computer bolts, contrary to the encyclopedia definitions.

@NWF_Renim: We have a very clear cut divider, size should...

2012-05-23T20:58:28-04:00

We have a very clear cut divider, size should not matter at all. It should only be based on whether it is tapered or not, you're the ones making this more complex than it needs to be. Throwing in all the other stuff that you're trying to do only makes it that much more subjective in labeling.

@Shinjidude: We're getting overly picky now, but the same...

2012-05-23T20:13:15-04:00

We're getting overly picky now, but the same 6-32 screws used in a computer are used with 6-32 nuts in other situations, and I doubt that I'd change the word I'd call the thing based only on that.

Since we are all about visual appearance here, I'm sort of inclined to go with a definition much like anon153's.

If it's relatively large, untapered, has a relatively fine thread, and driven only by a wrench, it's a bolt.

If it's relatively small, can be driven by a screwdriver (very few proper bolts can), and especially if its tapered and has a relatively coarse thread, it's a screw.

Ambiguous cases should go towards the definition that fits better.

@NWF_Renim: Some sources would say being able to use a...

2012-05-23T18:13:24-04:00

Some sources would say being able to use a screwdriver on it has no bearing on whether it is or isn't a screw as both bolts and screws can support them (additionally things like size, head shape, etc aren't important as what they consider defines them is how they're used). Your proposed division is overly complex. It would be best to use a simple dividing line between them, which would be tapering versus non-tapering. Everything that is tapered should be labeled a screw, while everything without is labeled a bolt.

Going by those sources, the important thing in determining a bolt or screw is simply the method of the connection that is formed, which unfortunately would not be a taggable concept. A "screw" by their definition is one that connects two pieces together by going through one piece and then embedding and fastening itself to the other piece. A "bolt" then would be one that connects two pieces by going through both pieces and then fastening and being tightened to a nut. Going by that, a computer's "screw" is simply a screw because of the connection. For example, the side panel being fastened down, the "screw" goes through the side panel's hole and fastens to the back panel. So it is a screw because it goes through one piece and fastens itself to the second. If it went through both of the panels and was then fastened to a nut, it was then be a "bolt."