So... By sacrificing a human life, humans can walk alongside gods?
This the same thing as saying that in order for you to be able to fly with birds, you jump off a cliff. The Darwin award of the annals of our history, ladies and gentlemen.
The main purpose of sacrificing is not transforming Sanae to a god.It's a tradition between human village and youkai mountain long before Sanae and two gods of Moriya came into Gensokyo.
The main purpose of sacrificing is not transforming Sanae to a god.It's a tradition between human village and youkai mountain long before Sanae and two gods of Moriya came into Gensokyo.
Just to add on to that, I believe it is also a compromise between the Youkai and Humans of Gensoukyo, a peace treaty of sorts or maybe a remnant of such a treaty. It could have started as "Sacrifice a human every 9 years and the youkai of the mountain will not feed recklessly" which slowly became a custom and roots forgotten. Which is kind of normal really, after all, we, in the real world, have customs which we follow but whose roots have been forgotten, misinterpreted or modified by time.
Anyway, given that this is Zounose's Gensoukyo, I would have to agree with Keine. Changing traditions and customs have and always met opposition and in this world, it could cause a breakout of violence, war and potentially the domestication of humans and lifestock.
snirky said: Anyway, given that this is Zounose's Gensoukyo, I would have to agree with Keine. Changing traditions and customs have and always met opposition and in this world, it could cause a breakout of violence, war and potentially the domestication of humans and lifestock.
I understand the idea of coming to a compromise based on co-existing, and I understand that tradition is kind of a thing when it comes to worship and similar things.
Here's my issue with that argument, though: People also believed that sacrificing virgins by throwing them into a volcano appeased the Gods' wrath. People believed that by torching a living child guaranteed safe harvests. If we consider that these Gods require such sacrifices in order to share their blessing in some way, is that truly a God worth your worship? Or is it just an ethereal dictator that claim if you don't kill your young for his amusement he's going to rain fire all over everyone's heads?
It is not a good compromise to achieve. Some might think otherwise, and they are entitled to believing that. But it doesn't change the fact that you are sacrificing your kin for the sake of a creature that won't do you any good if you don't sacrifice someone first.
I also came to the conclusion that Gensokyo came to be when Humans went in there and beat the Youkai into submission. That's why there are humans there in the first place. If anything, this "deal" is going "down" in a way that makes me wonder what the humans themselves are thinking.
They are not walking alongside Gods, they are being used as their fridge. And that bothers me, because I am also a sentient, self-aware creature, not their personal livestock.
I also came to the conclusion that Gensokyo came to be when Humans went in there and beat the Youkai into submission. That's why there are humans there in the first place. If anything, this "deal" is going "down" in a way that makes me wonder what the humans themselves are thinking.
Source for this conclusion? Because I was under the impression that Gensokyo is mainly Yukari's brainchild. Humans exist inside mainly because youkais are defined by what they do with humans. If she sealed the place with only youkais, they would lack people to eat or scare, and would cease to be. Another reason is probably the "balance" theme that ZUN hits on again and again: Without a living human culture inside, the place would become so saturated with youkai energies that it would probably phase into Makai.
Gensokyo doesn't exist for humans. It's specifically a place to preserve youkai.
_cf said: Source for this conclusion? Because I was under the impression that Gensokyo is mainly Yukari's brainchild. Humans exist inside mainly because youkais are defined by what they do with humans. If she sealed the place with only youkais, they would lack people to eat or scare, and would cease to be.
Gensokyo doesn't exist for humans. It's specifically a place to preserve youkai.
That is actually untrue! Not mistaken, but untrue.
Gensokyo isn't a Youkai care center, it is a world where all creatures can live together in relative harmony and co-exist. I will quote a few passages from the Touhou Wikia here - their validity can be debated at your leisure, but I lack any "original, Zun-written sources" so I will have to work with what I have.
"In the Touhou Project, humans from the land of Gensokyo are physically similar to humans in the outside world, but are remarkably different in terms of abilities and their dominance over land. In ancient times, brave humans, who knew how to deal with supernatural entities, traveled to a youkai-infested area that we now call Gensokyo. They settled there in order to watch the youkai and keep them from terrorizing the rest of the countryside. These capable humans battled the youkai often. One day, Gensokyo was sealed away from the rest of the world. Having been separated from the rest of humanity, Gensokyo humans have ignored scientific advances and developed formidable innate spiritual power to survive. Today, the normal Gensokyo human is probably a little more powerful than the average youkai, but the population of youkai greatly outnumbers humans. Most humans live in the Human Village, but a few live in other notable locations."
As this says, the population of Youkai greatly outnumber humans, sure, but they don't overwhelm them because they can't. Or they won't, because Yukari doesn't let them, otherwise she'll go full Whitman on their asses. Or maybe the Humans themselves will. The possibilities all exist.
"Gensokyo was originally a desolate, haunted region of Japan ages ago. The youkai that lived there began to terrorize the surrounding lands, and thus powerful, heroic humans were sent to exorcise and exterminate them. The off and on battle between humans and youkai continued on until 1885 A.D., when Gensokyo was sealed off from this increasingly scientific and skeptical world with the creation of the Great Hakurei Barrier."
This is up to my interpretation, but I believe Gensokyo was sealed from the Skeptics because the Spiritual Humans already had proven their point by beating the Youkai senseless. Yukari and the Hakurei came to a reasonable compromise: co-existing instead of full extermination. Gensokyo was simply the result of that compromise coming into play. Now, -outsiders- on the other hand, are not the humans of Gensokyo. They lack the powers that they have, only having the knowledge they carry with them as their weapon. But because of that fact, they are considered valuable and held in relatively high regard by its residents. That's also on the Wiki.
"Yukari mentions to herself that "youkai may attack humans but do not eat them recklessly. Humans from the town are generally not for their eating under the contract" in Cage in Lunatic Runagate Chapter 5, showing the contract (or at least, a contract) extends to all youkai and prevents consumption, not attacking. Unfortunately, these two factors results in many outsiders that end up in Gensokyo being eaten by youkai. Sometimes immediately, or sometimes after the youkai lose interest in them."
Now THAT is irrefutable. Outsiders get eaten, probably by the youkai with no self-awareness, but they still do because they are not bound by the rules Yukari placed in there. This makes Zounose's previous story about canned humans or something ssssssssslightly possible to some sickeningly degree. I still find hard to picture Aya or Chen eating someone's face off and not being disturbed by their self-awareness, but I'm a silly idealist, so that is moot.
Forgive me for using so many damn words and going into a full dissertation about the goings-on from Gensokyo. Can't blame someone for trying to defend their rights not to be used as livestock.
_cf said: Gensokyo doesn't exist for humans. It's specifically a place to preserve youkai.
Yes,this is a very important point. Don't forget why did Yukari want to build Gensokyo at the beginning.It is because humans outside started to forget the fear to the youkai and the gods.
Goldva said:
I also came to the conclusion that Gensokyo came to be when Humans went in there and beat the Youkai into submission. That's why there are humans there in the first place. If anything, this "deal" is going "down" in a way that makes me wonder what the humans themselves are thinking.
Well...my impression is only few humans could fought youkai and the gods,like a poor miko of Hakurei,or a pad-using maid who worked in a vampire mansion.Human Village is a specially protected zone that youkai could not kill inside.
Not everyone can accept Zounose's stories,I understand.But you had to admit his stories did not deviate from the original idea of Gensokyo.
Goldva said:
"In the Touhou Project, humans from the land of Gensokyo are physically similar to humans in the outside world, but are remarkably different in terms of abilities and their dominance over land. In ancient times, brave humans, who knew how to deal with supernatural entities, traveled to a youkai-infested area that we now call Gensokyo. They settled there in order to watch the youkai and keep them from terrorizing the rest of the countryside. These capable humans battled the youkai often. One day, Gensokyo was sealed away from the rest of the world. Having been separated from the rest of humanity, Gensokyo humans have ignored scientific advances and developed formidable innate spiritual power to survive. Today, the normal Gensokyo human is probably a little more powerful than the average youkai, but the population of youkai greatly outnumbers humans. Most humans live in the Human Village, but a few live in other notable locations."
I do not see this at any other Chinese or Japanese sources...I am pretty sure that is not the original human village that Zun created.
Again,I just want to say that Zounose's stories did not deviate from the original idea of Gensokyo.As other sweet stories didn't,either.That's the interesting part of Touhou.
FelReaver said: Again, I just want to say that Zounose's stories did not deviate from the original idea of Gensokyo. As other sweet stories didn't,either. That's the interesting part of Touhou.
True. He is taking a look of Gensokyo and writing his own version of stories around that particular view. This world is extremely up to interpretation in many areas, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion and views on the matter. I have nothing against that point, for if I was against it, that would be very silly of me.
That's exactly why there are so many different stories about the Scarlets, about Yukari, about Reimu and about Rinnosuke. So many different views on Byakuren's place as a saint, and about Youmu's swordsmanship and her relations with her grandfather. So many stories about Keine and Mokou, Kaguya and Eirin. About Reisen's story on the Lunar Wars, and about Komachi's spot as owner of the ferry instead of the actual grim reaper.
That's also exactly why people still poke the Tenshi is a masochist button, and people poke the Alice is a lovestruck stalker with no friends button. It annoys a couple people when those points are brought up. Those points were brought through something silly that happened in canon, and the points were completely missed through silly interpretations on those facts.
So, I'm not exactly saying that Zounose's interpretation of Gensokyo is a wrong one. Please don't think that I do. All I think is that despite having a grasp on the facts, I find this interpretation of the facts full of holes that don't make sense at all. My first point still stands: if you want to fly with birds, you jump off a cliff. That is the same reasoning behind accepting a human sacrifice as an offering so humans can walk alongside gods. The end result is still the same: the human dies.
There is no co-existing there. There is only gravity. And teeth. Whichever is chosen to be the one to eventually end one's life, I guess.
I understand the idea of coming to a compromise based on co-existing, and I understand that tradition is kind of a thing when it comes to worship and similar things.
Here's my issue with that argument, though: People also believed that sacrificing virgins by throwing them into a volcano appeased the Gods' wrath. People believed that by torching a living child guaranteed safe harvests. If we consider that these Gods require such sacrifices in order to share their blessing in some way, is that truly a God worth your worship? Or is it just an ethereal dictator that claim if you don't kill your young for his amusement he's going to rain fire all over everyone's heads?
It is not a good compromise to achieve. Some might think otherwise, and they are entitled to believing that. But it doesn't change the fact that you are sacrificing your kin for the sake of a creature that won't do you any good if you don't sacrifice someone first.
I also came to the conclusion that Gensokyo came to be when Humans went in there and beat the Youkai into submission. That's why there are humans there in the first place. If anything, this "deal" is going "down" in a way that makes me wonder what the humans themselves are thinking.
They are not walking alongside Gods, they are being used as their fridge. And that bothers me, because I am also a sentient, self-aware creature, not their personal livestock.
Those 2 particular examples of human sacrifices kinda scare me, knowing that things that cease to exist in our world would end up in Gensoukyo. Along with Mayan ritualistic sacrifice right up there.
In it is the wit and circumstances of our ancestors, who we inherited it from.It is a part of our history.It's an ancient practice handed down from long ago...!And godsCan walk together.Isn't that something that you, Sanae-dono, who are closest to the gods, should understand the most...!It is not something that we can stop simply because of one of our emotions...!It is like this that humans,And youkaiEven if it seems to be absurd at a glance,I thought that you would understand...