She's innocent, it's just that she decided to take action at the absolutely worst time possible, pouring more gas into the fire and ultimately causing the events of ep. 8.
I still hate her with passion, though. I mean, NTR'ing your best friend's guy (you've never even cared about enough to actually visit him in the hospital), two days after she saved your life and healed his crippled hand, all that while she's still trying to cope with the fact she's been irreversibly turned into a lich, giving her one day to "think it through" as if mocking her? Really, Green Mugi? Really?
Heparine said: I still hate her with passion, though. I mean, NTR'ing your best friend's guy (you've never even cared about enough to actually visit him in the hospital), two days after she saved your life and healed his crippled hand, all that while she's still trying to cope with the fact she's been irreversibly turned into a lich, giving her one day to "think it through" as if mocking her? Really, Green Mugi? Really?
First of all that is NOT NTR. That would imply that Sayaka had a relationship. She doesn't. Sayaka has no more claim over Kamijou than Hitomi did.
The fact that people are blaming and rendering Hitomi a slut is just plain sexist double-standard. She even TOLD Sayaka instead of going about her back. The fact that this could ruin her chances is quite admirable. Also Hitomi didn't know anything about the MG stuff. All of Sayaka's problems happened because she was being stupid, a hypocrite and angsting over the "zombie" stuff.
Keep in mind that Hitomi never knew and never could have known about the circumstances surrounding magical girls. She can't really be blamed for 'throwing fuels to the fire'.
Hate to say this, but even if Hitomi didn't make a grab at Sayaka's crush, something else would have happened causing them not to be able to be together. Remember how Mami dies no matter what? The whole point is that it is Sayaka's fate to turn into a witch, and she will do so no matter what until her fate is finally changed somehow.
Dutchems said: Remember how Mami dies no matter what?
Dying heroically against the final boss, getting eaten by the ep3 boss, and getting team-killed during a moment of despair are not really the same thing.
Sayaka transforming was probably inevitable. How it happened is what hurts.
Hitomi understood Sayaka loved him, and she said, in essence, that she is going to take him but she is willing to give Sayaka the first move. I don't hate Hitomi, but given that she is friends with Sayaka and likely knew how Sayaka liked him, its still comes close to backstabbing.
In this case, I don't think its cheating, since Sayaka was not in a formal relationship and in that sense its not, but I think Hep's point is this: If Hitomi were to have no real knowledge of Sayaka's relationship, this would be a different deal entirely. But, Hitomi basically took him from her and that is pretty close to a betrayal of friendship, to me.
hate to say this, but even if Hitomi didn't make a grab at Sayaka's crush, something else would have happened causing them not to be able to be together. Remember how Mami dies no matter what? The whole point is that it is Sayaka's fate to turn into a witch, and she will do so no matter what until her fate is finally changed somehow.
This works out to be largely irrelevant because it falls into the main theme, or one of them, is that a selfish pursuit if happiness ultimately causes more suffering. The fact that the ultimate design remains unchanged isn't the point, its that Homura, for one, is basically violating Madoka's free will and right to choose for a plot that she has to know, or is willfully ignorant of, will fail. Its an exercise in futility in the hope for a happy ending, which if the series is to have any real value, there won't be one. The entire series is about suffering, and ultimately, suffering will bring about salvation while happiness will not. Its a great thing if will is able to beat fate, but ultimately it cheapens the message, to me, if will alone is able to triumph. I think a character can be a hero if they die unhappily, providing their cause is just and their actions justified. In this case, pursuing happiness at the expense of the universe, essentially, pursuing individual, temporary happiness for a short moment that will inevitably end in a greater tragedy rather than accepting suffering and pain now so others don't have to, I think the latter is closer to a heroic ideal.
Oh, actually no, that wasn't what I was trying to say. Decent point there, though. But love doesn't work that way and there's no "right to" or "deserve" in it.
Sadly, confessing was completely out of question for Sayaka at the moment. Anyone saying otherwise is delusional - sure, she might be able to deal with it over time (time being the operative word) like Kyouko did, but there's no constant or formula saying how long does it take for a fourteen years old girl to accept the fact she's no longer human, her soul is confined in a piece of jewelry and there's no way back. In the meanwhile, I wouldn't really count on her to be very rational or to deal effectively with relationships.
But if people want to put it like Fragbet did (it was all her fault, she was stupid, a hypocrite and angsting over the zombie thing), there's nothing I can say, except probably just wonder... isn't life simple? Emotions are overrated, everyone should behave completely rationally in the face of tragedies and gravely important decisions!
Hey guys, if you're not gonna stop ranting at the comment box, the I'll give you my thoughts.
Kamijou Kyousuke is why everything happened, and thus Homura should've killed him even before Sayaka turn into a puella magi. Hitomi is not at fault here.
One thing, since the wiki definition on it was brought into this, and I wrote it.
The netorare wiki is partially my own interpretation of it. Certainly not everyone has the same definition of NTR. The original definition I read elsewhere doesn't either, limiting it mostly to lover relationships.
Though, as it became more prevalent in stuff, what with more varied scenarios, the line became blurred and the definition changed. So I thought that should be included, as well. In closing, I believe it's come to include many forms of betrayal and violations of trust, real or imagined (one sided), and not just cheating. I believe it's also easier as far as Danbooru tagging goes, as well.
I'll give it another once over soon, though.
Just to steer this back on course, my two cents. No, I don't believe Hitomi is a bad friend, intended to hurt Sayaka, or anything. Sayaka had no right to him. It was mostly just extremely unfortunate timing, coincidences, and twists of fate, something Puella Magi seems to be all about. I think a bad friend would have totally went behind her back. On the other hand, doing so probably would've spared Sayaka's feelings and slowed her transformation, if only for a little bit, but Shizuki couldn't have known that. You can argue whether or not she was slightly selfish and too self-centered to notice Sayaka's distress, but she thought she was doing the right thing by telling her. I think if many of us were in the same situation with no knowledge of the behind-the-scenes, or if faced with it in real life, we would at least consider being as forthright as her. I guess another option would be to bottle up her feelings, but, again, Sayaka had no clear right or claim on him.
UnderneathTheWaves said: she thought she was doing the right thing by telling her.
"Road to hell is paved with good intentions."
Personally, I don't think Hitomi was being benevolent by giving Sayaka a day to get the first crack at Kyousuke. From their talk, I thought that she did it so she would feel less guilty about confessing to him. That's probably kind of cynical of me, but that's why I don't think she's a good friend.
The circumstances don't really matter. If Sayaka didn't know about the truth about the soul gems (so there wouldn't be a zombie problem), Hitomi would've done the same thing. The outcome might be a little different, but I still wouldn't have liked what she did.
If Hitomi actually did wait for Sayaka to confess first instead of giving her an ultimatum, I might've thought better of her.
makkun said: Hey guys, if you're not gonna stop ranting at the comment box, the I'll give you my thoughts.
Kamijou Kyousuke is why everything happened, and thus Homura should've killed him even before Sayaka turn into a puella magi. Hitomi is not at fault here.
End of story.
Homura killing him will likely end in the same result anyways.
The trigger for the catastrophic cascade of events was Kyubey contacting Sayaka and planting the idea of making a wish for Kyousuke's sake into her head. Sayaka being a magical girl for his sake has little chance to end well no matter what. There are hints she killed Hitomi in TL3 before turning into a witch - all that under ideal circumstances, being supported by all her MS friends, without the trauma from Mami's death or the truth about soul gems (well... not sure about the latter, as the revelation might have served to smooth things out between Sayaka and Kyouko in both the current timeline and TL3). With Kyousuke still bedridden, there was actually a decent chance for a relationship, or at least a peaceful demise of Sayaka's hopes for one, depending on whether he really wasn't interested in her at all or was just being dumb shit failing to notice her feelings. With Sayaka being an MG and Kyousuke healthy, Hitomi and the positive feedback of grief on MG come into play and an infinite number of ways for things to end up like shit arises.
At this point, Sayaka was well aware of the concept of wishes backfiring. Kyousuke seems to be largely detached, at any rate, it doesn't seem like he views Sayaka in a romantic sense.
Even if he remained bed-ridden, there were two issues at work still. For one, he is getting really irrational and emotional, and begins lashing out at Sayaka. She's already stressed so if this continues Sayaka will become James from Silent Hill 2 and we all know how that love story ended. The other is that it is a given she is aware of the power of the wish but there is no way she can know, with satisfaction, that her wish will cause more pain than harm.
At any rate, it seems like Sayaka is already dead once she becomes a MG. In one way, Hitomi and Kyousuke forming a relationship may end up being the best way for this to end since Kyouko's story is a pretty clear warning that getting normal people involved won't end well for anyone.
Not to mention that Homura's changes have done more to royally fuck up things than they have to help them. If Madoka becomes a magical girl, this entire loop will be futile.
darth_tohru said: If Hitomi actually did wait for Sayaka to confess first instead of giving her an ultimatum, I might've thought better of her.
Sayaka has been going to the hospital to meet him for god knows how long. Hitomi knows this. In fact, she probably didn't even go to visit him because she thought 'Oh, Sayaka's going after him so I'll let this go.' But now that he's back and she's STILL NOT DOING ANYTHING, you might as well. Honestly, I find it to be ridiculous. She likes this guy and hasn't made any kind of real move on him. Hitomi did nothing wrong. She doesn't know anything that her friend is going through, but then again, Sayaka could've just went outright and told her if they were really that close to begin with.
What you all really wanted to happen is for one girl to stand there and be shy for an entire season, while another girl sits there and watches FOREVER for her friend to confess to the man that she loves. Fuck that. Hitomi was done being beta. If Sayaka truly isn't going after it, then why not? They would all sit there, twiddling their thumbs, and none of them would become happy. This is why I didn't like Sayaka until the VERY END. Instead of cursing herself believing that her wish was a waste like she did in the beginning, she died believing in the future of his happiness, even if it wasn't with her.
Heparine said: There are hints she killed Hitomi in TL3 before turning into a witch
wat
And I agree with Nilix. Assuming Sayaka is a normal girl and is definitely unable to do something about Kyousuke, Hitomi's move may be beneficial for Sayaka in the long run, by forcing her to get over her hopeless situation and grow into a stronger/better person. Also, it must be pretty terrible for Hitomi to have Sayaka retaining Kyousuke all for herself without ever daring to confess. Scrap that waste, one person happy is better than none, or so she may think. I reckon however that she may have chosen to help Sayaka to get in better terms with Kyousuke and to find some courage. That, and the timing for her confession suggests she had lower interests in him while he was injured.
Well... Klarissa only appeared in TM3, right? And from how it looks, Oktavia seemed not to be bothered with her killing her own familiars with her wheels, unlike how Gertrud was angered by Mami stepping on her Adelbert. Oktavia clearly resented Klarissa, and that must has something to do with Sayaka's relationship with Hitomi.
Homu!A... Anyway, now I know that the reason for Miki Sayaka's transformation into a witchis her love for that boy.Good.Then I should just eradicate anything that could endanger it.Homu 10