Speaking of "head"... Well, nah, I don't have much. "fellatio"'s already fancy, and any other sex actions are probably not prominent in the more tasteful and artsy of uploads.

0xCCBA696 said:
evazion: That's a little problematic - I think ass is in common enough usage for it to be kept as is.

I was being sarcastic. I was trying to illustrate that using the proper term isn't necessarily better than using a slang word. That said, vulva would probably be better than pussy. I just hope we don't try to use formal terms for everything.

Let's alias taint to perineum.

All of these tag changes would be causing more problems than anything. Changing thigh_sex to intercrural would just be annoying because no one would even remember how to spell that when they tag such posts as well as those who search for it.

While using more formal words for tags seems to make sense, it would just be overkill, I think.

ePlus said:
All of these tag changes would be causing more problems than anything. Changing thigh_sex to intercrural would just be annoying because no one would even remember how to spell that when they tag such posts as well as those who search for it.

Aliases have already solved that problem.

shii said:
Let's alias taint to perineum.

If I had to pick one example to show that real words are better than slang, that would be it. I don't think anything else comes up to the level of retardation embodied in "taint".

(That's leaving aside the fact that it's not something that needs to be tagged in the first place.)

This is getting dangerously slippery slope.

And that is getting dangerously slippery-slope-fallacious :P Zero-derivational role shift from nounal phrase to adjective kernel, awesome.

Seriously, though, what do you mean? Are you just uneasy at the idea of changing many tags? (we've proposed at most five) Or do you have some other specific slope in mind down which we are in danger of slipping?

0xCCBA696 said: Seriously, though, what do you mean?

Your opening paragraph was too predictable, work on that. =P But my objection is to what feels, to me, like a competition to propose the most obscure tags possible. So "Where do you stop?" is the question. Everyone knows what the buttocks and urination are, so they're reasonable. Vulva seems like a real toss-up to me. And then intercrural? Perineum? Honestly? I know some of it is facetious, but when we have posts like the one that started this thread being made seriously, it makes me think I can't possibly be too careful. And even if one person is joking, someone else will seriously take up the suggestion.

In short, only serious proposals should be made and they should usually have a better argument behind them than simply "Well, if we accept x..." It also seems I'm not the only one who is worried about where this is all headed.

The primary concern oughta be objectivity (heh, about the sorts of words that have us looking at bodies as objects?), with a secondary being ease of use.

Words like "taint" are obviously crass, and "breasts" is both technical and common enough. "ejaculate" (n.) versus "cum" I lean toward the latter, because it's not too hard to say it without a vulgar inflection (maybe just from frequency of reading it) and of course all the sub-tags. "ass" would probably best follow suit, since I'd think that non-doctors/doctorates would find it hard to say "buttocks" without saying it goofily. Plus, again, the sub-tags.

"vulva" and "vagina", though... that's tough. "vagina" is frequent, yes, and so frequent that so many are oblivious to "vulva". I could side with it for bringing up the bar for viewers (seeing a distinction kinda makes the reaction more distinguished), but having them both aliased to "pussy" is convenient, and I wonder how many would care seeing the other included in their search. The counter in my mind is the interior, cutaway view things (term eludes me at the moment), but wouldn't you just kinda look for that tag?

Side question: is there any way to search for more than two tags (negative'd or not)?

T5J8F8 said:
Side question: is there any way to search for more than two tags (negative'd or not)?

Yes. Become privileged or higher in rank.

I've stayed out of this thread, but I'd echo
jxh2154's sentiments. I'm not against the gentrification of Danbooru, but we shouldn't be trying to sound like a medical textbook either. I've never seen the word "vulva" in a non medical/textbook context. And there is something to the slippery slope argument, who's to say what's acceptably polite and what's not? It's not as if these tags would ever show up in polite conversation anyway.

ejaculate vs cum is a non-issue, the obvious replacement is "semen".

I think people are getting too into specifics, just because one word might be a bit better changed doesn't mean they all have to be changed. I'm sure some users debating this are probably doing it just for the hell of it, I'm sure they wouldn't be that upset if the tags were changed. Anyway...

Some words are less appropriate than others, and yeah, Danbooru looks increasingly like a porn site everyday. It wouldn't hurt us to change that, considering danbooru is attracting a lot of people who actually use it for just that reason. Eh, I don't know the general outlook on that issues, though.

Semen is fine, vulva is not. Don't go too far in the name of "this is not a porn site". Some terms might not be technically the best, but please let us not change everything around for that.

LaC said: ejaculate vs cum is a non-issue, the obvious replacement is "semen".

This is the one change I'd probably endorse. And we did have semen in a tag before, with the rightfully killed and buried "semononfigure". Though T5J8F8's point about sub-tags is a very good one, and I'll have to keep in mind to alias *all* tags that rely on a base tag if we do any changes. Can't very well have 'semen' and then 'cum_on_breasts' ...and all billion other over-specific cum tags we have.

CUM-ON-CUM

... sorry, "cum-on-semen".

jxh2154 said:
So "Where do you stop?" is the question.

If I understand you correctly, this is exactly the slippery slope reasoning fallacy, showing that my opening paragraph, while predictable, was accurate.

Obviously, we (meaning you, or other admins) will examine each possible tag alias before committing it - if there's one thing this forum is good for, it is arguing endlessly over things :P I don't think that's a problem.

What I was suggesting was pee->urine and related tags. I later moved on to endorse cum->semen and tentatively pussy->vulva, if people are generally so inclined. thigh_sex->intercrural would be edificatory and more in line with current tags (anal instead of butt_sex or perhaps ass_sex (??) for example).

taint->perineum would be edificatory, but as LaC pointed out, it's really not something that needs to be tagged. It's like tagging "second segment of index finger" in all pictures which have a hand - it's only useful when it's an extreme closeup, and I have never found an extreme closeup of someone's perineum on danbooru (nor do I think I really want to).

But in any case, remember also that aliases fix obscurity problems. If the main objection is that people wouldn't know about the new tag, then aliases address that. If the problem is that we don't like the new, tag, that's entirely different (and more valid, IMO). As LaC mentioned, "taint" is a horrible word, and if we are going to tag the anatomical area in question, we should probably use the word perineum. I'd vote to just nuke it, though. More to the point, this is why thigh_sex should be aliased to intercrural - just because a word is not generally known doesn't make it more accurate, more descriptive, more in line with current tagging policy, and therefore just generally better.

jxh2154 said:
I know some of it is facetious, but when we have posts like the one that started this thread being made seriously, it makes me think I can't possibly be too careful.

How does the OP have anything to do with the suggestions I and others have been making more recently? Maybe that's not what you're suggesting, but I just want to point out that X-Sense's tagging suggestions are completely unrelated to what this thread turned into (thanks to my off-topic comments, sorry about that).

T5J8F8 said:
"vulva" and "vagina", though... that's tough. "vagina" is frequent, yes, and so frequent that so many are oblivious to "vulva". I could side with it for bringing up the bar for viewers (seeing a distinction kinda makes the reaction more distinguished), but having them both aliased to "pussy" is convenient, and I wonder how many would care seeing the other included in their search. The counter in my mind is the interior, cutaway view things (term eludes me at the moment), but wouldn't you just kinda look for that tag?

I addressed this in my last post. Almost all posts currently tagged pussy correspond to vulva and not vagina. Any post that actually did correspond to vagina would need to be tagged with something indicating it was an interior shot (the term eludes me too). So I don't think there would be any semantic problem with aliasing pussy to vulva, since especially in the context of danbooru they mean exactly the same thing.

Tieria said:
[...] just because one word might be a bit better changed doesn't mean they all have to be changed. [...] Some words are less appropriate than others, and yeah, Danbooru looks increasingly like a porn site everyday. It wouldn't hurt us to change that, considering danbooru is attracting a lot of people who actually use it for just that reason.

Yes. But I'd like to emphasize that my objective isn't to "make danbooru look less sleazy", though that would certainly be a good result. As I said earlier, I want to make the tags more...

T5J8F8 said:
The primary concern oughta be objectivity, with a secondary being ease of use.

Well, pretty much what T5J8F8 said. I'm not sure what he means by "objectivity", but I'm aiming for a voice-neutrality. When you see "tits" in a tag list, it somehow forces you to think that someone is saying "tits" about the picture, because it's not something you'd usually find in writing not supposedly generated by a narrator or character in literature. If you see "breasts" in the tag list instead, there's less of a dissonance there. It's part of the reason why we don't tag images as hot or sexy or kawaii (though the main reason is that they're obviously subjective tags, the applicability of which over which nobody could ever agree). It adds a voice to what should be a voiceless list of information.

RaisingK said:
Semen is fine, vulva is not. Don't go too far in the name of "this is not a porn site". Some terms might not be technically the best, but please let us not change everything around for that.

Uh, I think we probably should use the best tags possible. Unless you meant "technically" to apply to "best" rather than to "be", in which case I'm not sure what you're saying exactly.

Shinjidude said:
I'm not against the gentrification of Danbooru, but we shouldn't be trying to sound like a medical textbook either. I've never seen the word "vulva" in a non medical/textbook context. And there is something to the slippery slope argument, who's to say what's acceptably polite and what's not? It's not as if these tags would ever show up in polite conversation anyway.

Maybe our dialectical backgrounds differ, but I don't think that "vulva" is such an extremely dry term. And again, the point is not how "polite" the tags are - IMO, the point is how voiceless they are, how little they are tinged with connotations, and in some cases, that they're more appropriate as tags than the currently used one (e.g. intercrural vs. thigh_sex).

(end of floodpost)

As far as floodposts go, that one was pretty darn good. I think 0xCCBA696 has a point with the whole "voiceless" quality.

I agree with 0xCCBA696 wholeheartedly, although for me the benefit of neutrality lies in that it's not sleazy (but at the same time, it's also not anything else, which is a good thing).

Should we compile a list of proposed aliases/changes?

Best longpost ever, full agreement.

0xCCBA696 said: If I understand you correctly, this is exactly the slippery slope reasoning fallacy, showing that my opening paragraph, while predictable, was accurate.

I wish there were a term for the fallacy of writing off legitimate concerns as a "fallacy". What I posted was a warning/concern about what seemed to me a tendency to take this idea too far (and I wasn't the first), not a discussion ending decree. There's a very significant difference.

But in any case, remember also that aliases fix obscurity problems. If the main objection is that people wouldn't know about the new tag, then aliases address that.

Aliases have some issues. You can't do a wild card search on the pre-alias term. You can't see the pre-alias term in a tag list and +/- it. I don't think the pre-alias term would get picked up by the ambiguous tag system either, and I don't think autocomplete would grab it either, that that might depend on what context we're talking about autocomplete in. I'm sure there are other quirks, though hopefully ones that can be overcome via programming.

I love aliases, but remember that they're not perfect and the argument for the aliased-to tag has to be good.

How does the OP have anything to do with the suggestions I and others have been making more recently?

You're overthinking this, what I meant is exactly I said and you quoted, and it seems straightforward to me in context.

"Voiceless" sounds great and I've championed such an idea many times in many other threads (regarding subjective tags etc), as I'm sure you know.

But I don't see how that applies to, say, thigh_sex. I don't think that term is trying to say anything "in a specific voice".
Nor armpit_sex.
Do we look for a new term for footjob?
Is paizuri exempt because it's Japanese?

If you're going to say "that's the slippery slope fallacy again", I would have to ask why these are not legitimate questions, and how changing one does not demand changes in a number of other very similar situations.