The bulk update request #2627 has been rejected.

create alias shoe_removed -> single_shoe

same thing

EDIT: The bulk update request #2627 (forum #166397) has been rejected by @evazion.

shoe_removed means a shoe is lying there not being worn
single_shoe means one foot has a shoe on it and the other doesn't

there's a lot of overlap because artists draw the removed shoe in single_shoe pictures, but there could be an unworn shoe in a picture where both feet are shoeless

[redacted dumbassery] Oh, foot out of frame... Point taken. Another example, post #3798319 has one worn shoe but the other isn't seen thus only single_shoe applies.

Take a look at post #3026304. It satisfies the current definition of shoe_removed, yet it clearly does not satisfy the definition of single_shoe. Therefore, this alias is problematic.

That said, I don't see why it's necessary to have separate plural and singular tags for shoes_removed, shoe_removed, boots_removed, boot_removed, sandals_removed, sandal_removed, and whatever else fits this category. IMO they should have all been rolled up into a single footwear_removed tag when we consolidated all the other footwear tags in topic #14395.

iridescent_slime said:

That said, I don't see why it's necessary to have separate plural and singular tags for shoes_removed, shoe_removed, boots_removed, boot_removed, sandals_removed, sandal_removed, and whatever else fits this category. IMO they should have all been rolled up into a single footwear_removed tag when we consolidated all the other footwear tags in topic #14395.

I've been wondering the same myself or at least why there is singular and plural variants, we don't have it for most other things.

I agree with the plural/singular thing. For myself, I always use the plural form.

The bulk update request #2627 (forum #166397) has been rejected by @evazion.

iridescent_slime said:

That said, I don't see why it's necessary to have separate plural and singular tags for shoes_removed, shoe_removed, boots_removed, boot_removed, sandals_removed, sandal_removed, and whatever else fits this category. IMO they should have all been rolled up into a single footwear_removed tag when we consolidated all the other footwear tags in topic #14395.

Feel free to request this. shoe_removed -single_shoe will need some gardening first though, because some taggers do use shoe removed to mean single shoe.

There is a difference between single and plural, with regards the sort of situation that they suggest, but given that in terms of images "single" could be "multiple but with one out of the frame" while "multiple" could be "more than one single" there probably isn't much point having separate tags for shoe removed/shoes removed, no.

I'm rather more sceptical of the idea of combining various footwear removed tags, though.

The bulk update request #2708 is pending approval.

mass update shoe_removed -> footwear_removed shoes
mass update shoes_removed -> footwear_removed shoes
mass update boot_removed -> footwear_removed boots
mass update boots_removed -> footwear_removed boots
mass update sandal_removed -> footwear_removed sandals
mass update sandals_removed -> footwear_removed sandals
mass update slippers_removed -> footwear_removed slippers

The replacement of shoes_removed with footwear_removed was actually proposed years ago as part of a much more ambitious bulk update in topic #7619. At the time it was dismissed as unnecessary because tags like sandals_removed did not yet exist and it was assumed that everyone understood the "shoes" in shoes_removed to mean any similar footwear such as slippers or sandals.

Since then, however, new tags have proliferated to fill a perceived gap in coverage. Instead of a single tag, attempting to replicate the old shoes_removed search now requires a much more cumbersome ~shoe_removed ~shoes_removed ~boot_removed ~boots_removed ~sandal_removed ~sandals_removed ~slippers_removed search. Inconsistency in the way these newer tags are applied has also made them less useful as some taggers continue to use shoes_removed as it was originally intended.

Hopefully reuniting the tags for removed footwear back under a single tag will help simplify tagging and searching alike.

evazion said:

Feel free to request this. shoe_removed -single_shoe will need some gardening first though, because some taggers do use shoe removed to mean single shoe.

I went ahead and gardened boot_removed -single_boot and sandal_removed -single_sandal as well. This turned out to be a good thing as many of those posts had boots and sandals mistagged as single_shoe which implicates shoes. Also, there was a surprising number of posts tagged shoe_removed where a pair of shoes was removed, so it seems that at least some of the users adding this tag aren't even paying attention to the singular/plural aspect in the first place.

skylightcrystal said:

I'm rather more sceptical of the idea of combining various footwear removed tags, though.

Could you elaborate on the reason for this skepticism?

It's been two years since all the colored shoe and boot tags were merged together, and I haven't seen any complaints about search becoming less useful since then. If anything, this update is likely to have even less of an impact on search than the updates in topic #14395. It's not uncommon to see mixed colors and styles of footwear in the same image (black shoes and brown boots or brown shoes and black boots, for instance), but it's quite rare to see images where, say, one character wears sandals and another character's shoes are removed.

In fact, if you look right now at a search like shoes sandals_removed or boots shoes_removed, you'll see that in many cases, both tags refer to exactly the same pair (e.g., post #2896133). Keeping these these *_removed tags split up isn't doing us any good at the present time, because in practice these tags are so ill-maintained that they aren't useful for searching for different types of footwear anyway.

The bulk update request #2709 is pending approval.

remove alias shoes_off -> shoes_removed
create alias shoe_removed -> footwear_removed
create alias shoes_removed -> footwear_removed
create alias boot_removed -> footwear_removed
create alias boots_removed -> footwear_removed
create alias sandal_removed -> footwear_removed
create alias sandals_removed -> footwear_removed
create alias slipper_removed -> footwear_removed
create alias slippers_removed -> footwear_removed

Tying up loose ends. To be done only after the other update.

iridescent_slime said:

Could you elaborate on the reason for this skepticism?

It's been two years since all the colored shoe and boot tags were merged together, and I haven't seen any complaints about search becoming less useful since then. If anything, this update is likely to have even less of an impact on search than the updates in topic #14395. It's not uncommon to see mixed colors and styles of footwear in the same image (black shoes and brown boots or brown shoes and black boots, for instance), but it's quite rare to see images where, say, one character wears sandals and another character's shoes are removed.

In fact, if you look right now at a search like shoes sandals_removed or boots shoes_removed, you'll see that in many cases, both tags refer to exactly the same pair (e.g., post #2896133). Keeping these these *_removed tags split up isn't doing us any good at the present time, because in practice these tags are so ill-maintained that they aren't useful for searching for different types of footwear anyway.

My scepticism comes on two fronts:
- I'd assumed there would be (and thought there were) far more pictures of characters wearing one form of footwear while another is not being worn, given the Japanese culture of changing shoes when you come into a building, than there actually are.
- An extension of what I was mentioning earlier in that comment - about the difference in meaning of different scenarios. Thinking about it more, though, other than the situations above it's unlikely to actually be significant in ways that can't be resolved with multiple tag searching.
Plus the fact that these sorts of splits in the past have generally made the overall tagging state worse, not better, although that's less the case here as the main difference comes from the removal of implications and there aren't implications from the existing tags even if there should be (and, as a result, this update will at least initially make things better).

As you can probably tell, I'm not outright opposed to this, but I am somewhat sceptical about it.

skylightcrystal said:

My scepticism comes on two fronts:
- I'd assumed there would be (and thought there were) far more pictures of characters wearing one form of footwear while another is not being worn, given the Japanese culture of changing shoes when you come into a building, than there actually are.
- An extension of what I was mentioning earlier in that comment - about the difference in meaning of different scenarios. Thinking about it more, though, other than the situations above it's unlikely to actually be significant in ways that can't be resolved with multiple tag searching.
Plus the fact that these sorts of splits in the past have generally made the overall tagging state worse, not better, although that's less the case here as the main difference comes from the removal of implications and there aren't implications from the existing tags even if there should be (and, as a result, this update will at least initially make things better).

As you can probably tell, I'm not outright opposed to this, but I am somewhat sceptical about it.

Fair enough! A bit of skepticism about major tag changes is a good thing. There have been a lot of regrettable aliases and implications in the not-so-distant past, resulting in major tagging headaches that could have been prevented if someone had spoken up with a timely counterargument. I genuinely appreciate it when someone offers up a solid reason why an idea is unworkable, because nobody is perfect and it's not always obvious to me when a given solution has a crippling flaw.

As for the apparent lack of pictures where one character is wearing a certain kind of footwear, and another character has a different kind of footwear removed, I think this reflects a tendency among artists to draw characters in matching attire whenever it befits the setting. Like, images set in a classroom tend to have only characters wearing loafers or uwabaki, everyone in a beach scene or festival wears sandals, and so on. There are of course exceptions, but they are surprisingly uncommon.

As long as we're talking about footwear aliases, how about a "no_shoes -> no_footwear" alias? It would make things more consistent. Additionally, there have been multiple times where I'll try to do no footwear, discover that there is no such tag, and only remember that it's no shoes multiple moments later.

If we're not going to do that, can we at least get the reverse of that alias?