Again with the jealousy of lamia-types... I wonder what the rationale is behind this, since typically in eastern cultures, snakes are more symbolic of pride than of jealousy.
The lamia type monster girls are my favorite (in general, outside of this Kenkou Cross universe), but I don't really like seeing them be the insecure types that instantly assume that their husband will leave them for some random woman he just started talking to for the first time, even if all he's doing is trying to secretly buy his wife a surprise present from a store clerk.
NWSiaCB said: even if all he's doing is trying to secretly buy his wife a surprise present from a store clerk.
I actually imagined out this scenario...let's just say the end result of my imagination was humorous, and would have been not out of place in any romantic comedy.
Byakugan01 said: I actually imagined out this scenario...let's just say the end result of my imagination was humorous, and would have been not out of place in any romantic comedy.
Which is sort of the problem, isn't it? I mean, even in anime romantic comedies, the super-violent tsunderes either calm down when the relationship gets more steady or they mature and can handle their feelings better. Plus, their boyfriends generally ARE feeling up random girls... These characters are stuck in that too-immature-for-love mode permanently.
Rather, the reason I talk about the difference between pride and jealousy is because someone who is that jealous that they think their husband will leave them at any second is the sort of person who simply has no trust in their partner and that the relationship they have can be replaced at a moment's notice. In other words, they lack the self-confidence that they are worthy of being loved, and that is the total opposite of pride.
Now, while it's certainly true that they could put on some sort of facade of pride, that's really not the same thing, or rather, if the only pride they can show is a hollow pride that just keeps people away, that's really only even more sad.
Like with the heroine that gets changed into a succubus, or that set of high school girls who get converted into succubi that are further down the list of Kenkou Cross works, these may look like fun sex romps at first blush, but it's really truly sad when you examine these things. The individual qualities and hopes of their human sides get thrown away in favor of meaningless sex.
In this case, Kenkou Cross turns a "Star-crossed lovers" story about a woman who struggles against fate for love, even in the face of giving up her chance to become a deity and being forever imprisoned in a well into a story about constant sexual gratification. I'm not even a fan of Star-Crossed Lovers stories, but I still think that's a step down.
Honestly, the more Kenkou Cross I look at, the more I'm thinking the strawman has a point - the human-monster relations are just grounded in pointless perpetual physical gratification. There's something very Brave New World about this universe, except it's apparently not being used as a satire. Along with the whole "the world is being corrupted at a geometric rate" thing, wiping out the demon lord, and rewriting some of these crazy rules would be demanded.
(And yes, I am FULLY aware of the irony of posting such a thing while on a site like Danbooru...)
NWSiaCB said: Which is sort of the problem, isn't it? I mean, even in anime romantic comedies, the super-violent tsunderes either calm down when the relationship gets more steady or they mature and can handle their feelings better. Plus, their boyfriends generally ARE feeling up random girls... These characters are stuck in that too-immature-for-love mode permanently.
Rather, the reason I talk about the difference between pride and jealousy is because someone who is that jealous that they think their husband will leave them at any second is the sort of person who simply has no trust in their partner and that the relationship they have can be replaced at a moment's notice. In other words, they lack the self-confidence that they are worthy of being loved, and that is the total opposite of pride.
Now, while it's certainly true that they could put on some sort of facade of pride, that's really not the same thing, or rather, if the only pride they can show is a hollow pride that just keeps people away, that's really only even more sad.
Like with the heroine that gets changed into a succubus, or that set of high school girls who get converted into succubi that are further down the list of Kenkou Cross works, these may look like fun sex romps at first blush, but it's really truly sad when you examine these things. The individual qualities and hopes of their human sides get thrown away in favor of meaningless sex.
In this case, Kenkou Cross turns a "Star-crossed lovers" story about a woman who struggles against fate for love, even in the face of giving up her chance to become a deity and being forever imprisoned in a well into a story about constant sexual gratification. I'm not even a fan of Star-Crossed Lovers stories, but I still think that's a step down.
Honestly, the more Kenkou Cross I look at, the more I'm thinking the strawman has a point - the human-monster relations are just grounded in pointless perpetual physical gratification. There's something very Brave New World about this universe, except it's apparently not being used as a satire. Along with the whole "the world is being corrupted at a geometric rate" thing, wiping out the demon lord, and rewriting some of these crazy rules would be demanded.
(And yes, I am FULLY aware of the irony of posting such a thing while on a site like Danbooru...)
As the current Demon Lord is a succubus, the physical gratification aspect is not surprising. From her view it is the only method to end the genocidal war between humans and monsters and an improvement from the reign of the previous Lord. She even imposed a mandate forbidding the killing of humans by monsters (in most situations) to further her goal of coexistence between the races. Of course, whether the current state of the world is better than the previous is up for debate but both of the main sides in this world have their valid points and flaws.
There are also quite a few examples where the human-monster relationships are not based around or solely defined by pointless, perpetual, physical gratification. The Zipangu region, where this lovely lady is from, holds a good number of monsters with such relationships.
Actually, most of the "Japanese myth zone with a different paint job" region monsters are fairly similar - look at the Inari, for example. Even as the "good" version of the kitsune type, she's still dominated by lust the more her power grows. (And her power grows when she revels in her lust...) Then there's the Youko, which is just the same thing, but with "extremely aggressive wife" scratched out and replaced with "outright rape". The profile even pretty much says that the Inari is just a Youko who has good PR.
In fact, there's nothing that says that was actually any different before the succubus demon lord came to power. Rather, Zipangu is always referenced as a place that's always been at peace with its monster girls, and nothing says that's changing. Presumably, that's the way Zipangu has always been. Zipanese guys are apparently just cool with having a few of their guys getting "eaten" by the Jurogumos and such.
Still, if the MonMusu Quest that Kenkou Cross collaborated on is any indication, the fundamentalist religious anti-monster crowd is a bunch of jerks, but at the same time, the majority of problems the people face really are caused by rapist monster girls running amok and/or humans making more rapist monster girls and letting them run amok. (In spite of being sympathetic to monster girls, the only characters you fight are monster girls, which will rape, kill, or eat you. Granted, though, if you submit, it's not so technically rape, but many of the bad ends involve Luka dying, nonetheless.)
Again, it tends to come back to the notion that the strawman kind of has a point. Some of the monstergirls like mermaids and lamias and harpies and lizardwomen you can live with, but many of the monstergirls are hardwired for rape, and frankly, even the mermaids and lamias and harpies and lizardwomen are highly problematic. (So wait, you mean after going on a particularly annoying quest to help you get married to your underaged husband, you want to "reward" me with a blowjob?! How about not?)
Really? I remember mention that before the succubus Demon Lord came to power (with the help of her husband), all monsters were pretty much what was typically expected in appearance and behavior. So while the Zipangu region was always more tolerant towards its monsters, the interactions of monster girl and human were only brought about in her current reign. And, while some Zipanese guys may indeed be "cool with it", hunting of the more dangerous monsters in that region still happens.
I agree with your assertion that many of the monster girls are hardwired for rape but it seems to largely confined to the mindless, Fallen, and succubi-tainted types.
The perpetual, physical gratification will always be there if only because finding the sole man they love the most, longing for him, and becoming one with him (often) is an ideal that the Demon Lord has reached and instilled in all monsters, with varying degrees of success. Even her daughters follow their mother's preference for monogamy and they can charm as many men as they wish with little effort.
Strawman does have a point but it is not as if this world was portrayed as a good one. The state of affairs is terrible for everyone involved, human and monster alike. Of course, there are factions and monster types in which the terrible state is irrelevant, they revel in it. Much like the Dark Eldar of the 40k universe in some respect.
For something that seems to be if not is a collection of fetishes, it certainly inspires its share of discourse.
Kurokawa said: For something that seems to be if not is a collection of fetishes, it certainly inspires its share of discourse.
Upon reflection, I believe I have to respond by saying that a fetish is, by definition, something that ordinarily has nothing to do with sex, but which becomes sexualized for certain individuals because of their rationalization and thought on the subject. It would be natural for people with such a fetish to be rather particular about it and discuss it if they felt it was a safe place to do so. (Look at that astarte952 guy, who is constantly putting in his argument for a harem ending into every Kenkou Cross image.)
Were these just images of women with odd horns or wings being sexualized, there would be no reason for the discussion, but Kenkou Cross is obviously doing something more than that - most of these images aren't even particularly sexualized, comparatively speaking. Kenkou Cross isn't just selling a sex fetish, though, he's selling a fantasy world, which is obviously idealized towards that particular fetish.
I'd have to say that, since the whole point of this fantasy world is to indulge in the idea of marrying a monster girl, and those monster girls are easy to find and rather willing to "marry" a guy, willing or not, then the notion that these things are supposed to be idealized isn't something so easily dismissed.
With all that said, perhaps my complaint is not all that different from astarte's - he wants his harem ending because that's how his fetish goes. Kenkou's personal idealized world has monster wives crawling out of the woodwork who want nothing but sex 24/7 to the point of abandoning all their previous ideals, as with the previous heroine-turned-succubus example, and that is in some ways portrayed as a good thing (because the character didn't like being chaste).
Perhaps my complaint simply stems from my own personal tastes on more self-deterministic women clashing with my obvious snake-girl fetish. My original complaint on this monstergirl type, after all, was just that emotional insecurity was her defining personality trait.
NWSiaCB said: Perhaps my complaint simply stems from my own personal tastes on more self-deterministic women clashing with my obvious snake-girl fetish. My original complaint on this monstergirl type, after all, was just that emotional insecurity was her defining personality trait.
I do see your problem with that as the description seems to have the Shirohebi act on her jealously at even slight or perceived transgressions. The others in the lamia family do not seem to be nearly as insecure.
NWSiaCB said: With all that said, perhaps my complaint is not all that different from astarte's - he wants his harem ending because that's how his fetish goes. Kenkou's personal idealized world has monster wives crawling out of the woodwork who want nothing but sex 24/7 to the point of abandoning all their previous ideals, as with the previous heroine-turned-succubus example, and that is in some ways portrayed as a good thing (because the character didn't like being chaste).
Well, I suppose the world would be considered ideal if one is willing to ignore several aspects of it. Particularly, that the sole reason for the abandoning of their previous values and want for copulation with human males (frequency varies with species) is due to the Demon Lord's mandate. It is most certainly not a voluntary shift but the monsters have little choice but to submit. Even the ones that have willpower leftover eventually succumb anyway, most disturbing is the dragon's case due to how submissive she becomes.
I doubt monster girls are crawling out of the woodwork so to speak. I would assume that initial population numbers before the shift were heavily in the favor of humans and that the distribution of monsters fluctuated with region and species type. Of course, monster girls in significant numbers would be the scenario once the current situation continued too far in its present state but other issues would also manifest at that point.
I would think a harem ending to be difficult to execute but more obtainable than remaining chaste.
When it comes to tsunderes, I can buy it. To me, most of tsundere's issues come from too much pride rather than a jealous streak, the latter coming as a result of the former.
Too me, yandere's tend to be much more oriented around jealousy, but I'm not that knowledgeable on either beyond that Taiga is the former and Yuno is the latter.
Anelaid said: When it comes to tsunderes, I can buy it. To me, most of tsundere's issues come from too much pride rather than a jealous streak, the latter coming as a result of the former.
Too me, yandere's tend to be much more oriented around jealousy, but I'm not that knowledgeable on either beyond that Taiga is the former and Yuno is the latter.
Generally, the way I read most tsunderes are that they are simply immature. Most of them are proud, yes, but more importantly, the reason that they react violently when they suddenly have to deal with their romantic emotions is that they aren't used to becoming so emotional, and react with panic or frustration at their sudden lack of control over themselves.
In general, I'm starting to like the whole tsundere idea less and less because of how formalized and binding it is - characters like Misaka Mikoto, who are great and interesting characters when they are on their own suddenly just start blubbering and staying in the kitchen baking cookies just because their male love interest is near. (And the dynamic between Mikoto and her sisters and how she deals with her own "ace" status relative to the people around her are all far more interesting than making her tsundere love interest #213951.)
Yanderes are overtly dependent upon others. In psychological terms, there are a handful of defense mechanisms (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_mechanism ) that one can use in dealing with one's problems, and yanderes use the most obviously problematic pathological defenses, like Splitting, which is a total black-and-white worldview. Your crush is pure good, you are pure good, anyone who gets in the way is pure evil, and they are only getting between you two because they are pure evil. Everything bad that happens to you or anyone else is all their fault which they did on purpose because they are evil. So kill them, because they're evil, and they deserve it. If your crush doesn't understand, it's because evil people brainwashed that person, so you just have to keep that person all to yourself until the brainwashing wears off. Everything you do is justified because they're evil, and you're good.
Kurokawa said: The others in the lamia family do not seem to be nearly as insecure.
Except that "jealousy" seems to be their primary emotional trait, including talk about how lamia will murder anyone they think cheats on them, and a statement in every other lamia-type's description that they are even more jealous than the basic lamias.
Kurokawa said: Well, I suppose the world would be considered ideal if one is willing to ignore several aspects of it. Particularly, that the sole reason for the abandoning of their previous values and want for copulation with human males (frequency varies with species) is due to the Demon Lord's mandate. It is most certainly not a voluntary shift but the monsters have little choice but to submit. Even the ones that have willpower leftover eventually succumb anyway, most disturbing is the dragon's case due to how submissive she becomes.
However, what you're arguing yourself into now is that this is a world that is actually pretty crappy, and that it must be changed.
Quite the contrary, I'd have to say that most people who look at these things are supposed to be (and generally are) very interested in living with these different monster girls as potential wives, not as victims or enemies to be overcome.
As you stated earlier, it's basically a fetish, but for something that has such a thorough backstory that Kenkou obviously spent a HUGE amount of time thinking about (he's been doing this for what, 5 years, now?), it has some fairly obvious flaws sticking out.
NWSiaCB said: In general, I'm starting to like the whole tsundere idea less and less because of how formalized and binding it is - characters like Misaka Mikoto, who are great and interesting characters when they are on their own suddenly just start blubbering and staying in the kitchen baking cookies just because their male love interest is near.
Just to add my irrelevant view. For me, it depends on the degree of execution as with all character types (except yandere, they are unsettling, period.) I have not seen much of the series but I did not find it too detracting from her as a character.
Back on topic.
NWSiaCB said: Except that "jealousy" seems to be their primary emotional trait, including talk about how lamia will murder anyone they think cheats on them, and a statement in every other lamia-type's description that they are even more jealous than the basic lamias.
Well, due to lack of elaboration in their descriptions or otherwise, I perceive them as more in control of their jealously. I also do not see jealously as their primary emotion, just one that seems notable in the family as a whole. Individual disposition vary and species disposition makes no mention of it.
I interpret it as the lamia and medusa taking their actions only after the unfaithfulness is very much confirmed. The Echidna seem to vary more on that stance. The Shirohebi in comparison is less discerning. Perhaps, it is the lack of fatality in her retaliation that affords her this. After all, it would be in the interest of the lamia to be certain that her mate is truly unfaithful or she may lose a perfectly fine male.
NWSiaCB said: However, what you're arguing yourself into now is that this is a world that is actually pretty crappy, and that it must be changed.
It is a crappy world, intentional or not. I do not believe I have made reservations about that.
Yes, the Demon Lord and her human husband had good intentions in mind for both races because the bloodshed of the war was considered wholly unnecessary. The Order would point to the consequences of world corrosion, declining human population, and involuntary changes to mind and body on the monster part as well as the destruction of at least two humanoid races; Elves to Dark Elves and the lack of male Dwarves. Though, the male Dwarves had a hand in the demise of their own gender.
Must it change? Well, that entirely rests on Kenkou Cross. I find the setting and its inhabitants quite interesting as is.
NWSiaCB said: Quite the contrary, I'd have to say that most people who look at these things are supposed to be (and generally are) very interested in living with these different monster girls as potential wives, not as victims or enemies to be overcome.
I approach from a different perspective that does not need to conflict with that nor am preaching that my interpretation is "right". To each his own but still fun to discuss. Learn different views, reinforce your own views, all beneficial effects. Out of context in terms of the setting and ignoring how these monster girls came to be, it is not difficult to view relationships with them as attractive. Okayado's comics certainly portrays these relationships in a positive, sometimes humorous, sometimes reflective manner. I thought the Arachne one was a little touching and have had a slightly softer view of the species since then.
Still, I have rankings for the monster girls ranging from Safe to No.
Because this is just so long, I'm going to split this up a little...
Kurokawa said: Just to add my irrelevant view. For me, it depends on the degree of execution as with all character types (except yandere, they are unsettling, period.) I have not seen much of the series but I did not find it too detracting from her as a character.
To go off on a side-conversation (this comment section is almost unmanageably long already, so I don't see how much worse this could hurt it...) on Index and Railgun...
I like Railgun more than Index because Touma is too generic a hero, while Mikoto is actually a pretty interesting character from time to time. The development of her relationship with her "sisters", especially was a serious glimpse into the character as she was thrust into a very strange situation.
Mikoto's relationship with Touma actually has some high points, as well, like where Mikoto, in spite of having the entire "Level Upper" incident where she insisted on how valuable everyone was as an individual, regardless of their own personal power levels, and how she always acts as though there is no reason she should really be considered an elite just for being a level 5, is thrown into weak-kneed terror at the mere thought that Touma might permanently take away her powers, and leave her a level 0. It was actually a complete bluff on Touma's part, thrown out in desperation, but merely thinking about not having her powers anymore made her immediately break off her attack and let Touma run away. Even earlier than that, when Mikoto tries to fire a point-blank attack at Touma, when he catches her wrist, leaving her helpless, she suddenly loses all her aggression, and basically reverts to the ordinary girl she would have been without her powers, and tearfully flinches when Touma is about to slap her. THAT says something about the character lurking within, and any decent writer is going to develop that well as the story goes on.
Meanwhile, in Index, after The Sisters Arc, Mikoto buys Touma some store-bought cookies as a thank-you for saving her sisters. When he complains that girls are supposed to home-bake things like that, she rightfully gets indignant on him for expecting her to stay in the kitchen. In Railgun, after the same events, she actually does go back to learn how to make cookies, but chickens out on actually giving Touma the cookies, which just completely breaks a lot of the character that had been developed everywhere else in the plot.
Plus, there is the event early on, where Mikoto needs Touma to stop an explosion because she screws up firing her railgun against a mid-level power... And then, when facing THE EXACT SAME POWER later on, only having dozens of exploding objects at the same time, she actually manages to protect herself from an explosion she didn't even see coming based solely off of magnetic fields. In other words, she didn't even need to use her railgun. Worse, Touma's power wouldn't even be able to stop the explosion, anyway, since his power should only work if he stopped the psychic agitation before the can exploded, not the kinetic force of the explosion after it happened, meaning Mikoto should have been protecting Touma in that event... It just means that, even in Mikoto's own story, she's still just playing second fiddle to Touma. It's like reading a Batman comic where all he does is talk about how cool Superman is, it's just annoying.
Ultimately, Railgun is best whenever Touma isn't around.
Kurokawa said: Well, due to lack of elaboration in their descriptions or otherwise, I perceive them as more in control of their jealously. I also do not see jealously as their primary emotion, just one that seems notable in the family as a whole. Individual disposition vary and species disposition makes no mention of it.
Except that they all dedicate two or three sentence to talking about the jealousy of the type. That may not sound like much, but these descriptions only have about 10 to 60 (increasing as time goes on) sentences to describe the characters at all. That means it's worth about 10% of everything you really need to know about those characters. Nothing else about the personality of the characters gets described, other than "lustful".
Kurokawa said: Perhaps, it is the lack of fatality in her retaliation that affords her this. After all, it would be in the interest of the lamia to be certain that her mate is truly unfaithful or she may lose a perfectly fine male.
Which doesn't strictly make it better - she just uses her magic to enslave her husband, and crush his will so that he doesn't love her because he truly has feelings for her so much as because she's forcing him to love her with her magic... (Which, it suddenly dawns on me, may be the exact reason why she's so insecure about her relationship, which may well depend upon her sorcery to force him to come back for more. "Does he really love me, or does he just crave being released from my magic compulsion?")
Kurokawa said: It is a crappy world, intentional or not. I do not believe I have made reservations about that.
Yes, the Demon Lord and her human husband had good intentions in mind for both races because the bloodshed of the war was considered wholly unnecessary. The Order would point to the consequences of world corrosion, declining human population, and involuntary changes to mind and body on the monster part as well as the destruction of at least two humanoid races; Elves to Dark Elves and the lack of male Dwarves.
I actually wonder why only the Demon Lord can overwrite all the personalities of everyone in the entire fantasy world. It seems like "darkness" is absurdly overpowered in this world.
It would, of course, be just as much a horrific subversion of free will to have "good guys" going around rewriting the core essence of the "people" inside of a monstergirl so that they wouldn't be little more than mindless rape machines, even if they were originally something else entirely (like the mandakos or mummies or dark slimes that were once intelligent women or even the ropers, which are basically in "I have no mouth and I must scream" horror situations with a parasite that has taken over her body), however, it, in some cases, seems like the only justifiable alternative to either letting the world become a rapefest or going on monstergirl genocide campaigns.
Which is why I ultimately view this whole setting as terribly depressing - personal free will is just a pawn in a game in this world, and is carelessly and casually bid away, with the only alternative being brutal segregation or outright genocide.
Kurokawa said: Still, I have rankings for the monster girls ranging from Safe to No.
Since we're pretty much at the point of shooting the shit, anyway, I'd be curious as to what sorts rank highest in your book?
I think I've made my own preferences abundantly clear, but my favorite types are the stronger-willed women, especially the kuudere types. The Lamia class rank very high, but in MGE-world, also the Vampires, Mantises, Anubis, Lizardwomen, Scylla, and also, to a lesser extent, the quieter types like Sea Bishop, Doppleganger, Nightmare, Yuki-onna, and the like.
I will have to take your points at face value due to previously mentioned reasons.
NWSiaCB said: Since we're pretty much at the point of shooting the shit, anyway, I'd be curious as to what sorts rank highest in your book?
"Shooting the shit", interesting. I will have to remember that phrase for use later.
My preferences overlap on some of yours, mainly Lizardman, Salamander, Mantis, and Vampire. I would add Crow Tengu and Dullahan as well. A cat is fine if it is a Nekomata and a Wererabbit is also fine. Nureonago is not bad as far as slimes go and Merrow is sweet in her own way though likely embarrassing to be around.
Dragon would have been great seeing as how she is strong, intelligent, and beautiful but the shift to overwhelmingly submissive detracts from all those traits.
Those that fall under the label of The Fallen and Sabbath are avoided. As well as the more demonically-inclined, mindless, undead, disturbing (Ropers and Matango in particular), and violent.
NWSiaCB said: (And yes, I am FULLY aware of the irony of posting such a thing while on a site like Danbooru...)
Actually that was pretty well thought and I admire your dedication to the logistics of such a thing, and now I am more well informed and in any case this gives me something to think about while doing the physical gratification things I do while observing such things as beautiful lamias like these. I think that knowing this now I can form my own bit of story to go with some images I have saved away. And yes the lack of confidence shows in the jealousy attribute. That doesn't seem appropriate at all for them. Although my girlfriend and I observe the zodiacs in a non serious way, she tends to be very jealous and she is, in fact, a snake. Oh well, it probably means nothing.
when i saw the movie legend of the white snake with jet li i must thinking all the time on that monstergirl. i´am sure the monster in the movie was a shirohebi even when no say this there.
You guys seem to be forgetting about the part where it says she'll stalk you until you become hers, effectively forcing you into a relationship you might not want and then being extremely jealous of any contact with other woman, be it a friend or actual love interest.