Good thing she doesn't have to go against the Iowa class; those ships had 212,000 hp.
256,520shp maximum/212,000shp listed, actually.
The US has this thing for listing specifications far on the side of caution. In the case of Ship's Engines, they design in a 10% 'safe overload' buffer zone that can be safely used without any damage whatsoever (beyond normal)to the boilers and turbines, in fact it's not even governed. Basically the 'yellow zone' on many meters. However, in the case of the Iowa-class there was a mix-up where the contractor (General Electric) told the Navy the rating with the buffer already calculated in, at 233,200shp. The Navy didn't realize this and reduced it another 10%, giving us the current listing of 212,000shp. When this came to light everyone involved just found it hilarious and ran with it.
However, the entire 256,520shp is already used to get the Iowa-class to their top speed (just under 35kn), so don't expect any kind of massive speed boost or anything. Any Captain that doesn't know about this and runs with the listed? Well, you may remember that incident where the Iowa failed to make top speed during a speed test in the '80s/early-'90s? Yeah.
On a Battleship vs Carrier battle? We can tell who will win already.
Despite the fact that both Yamato and Musashi, the two largest battleships ever built (in girth, the Iowas are actually longer) are beat by Zuikaku? I don't think just being a 'Battleship' has anything to do with it.
Weaker engine, yet heavier displacement. All those guns and armours adds up weight. Wasn't the slow speed one of Yamato's problem ?
Rechecking the numbers, Iowa had the same displacement and engine output as the Midway. Is the displacement for carriers includes the airplanes or without ?
In fictional scenario where they fight without their battle group, it will be who detect and strike the enemy first isn't it ?
Don't forget the massive fuel consumption. In fact, speed and fuel efficiency was pretty much the reason why the aged Kongou-class battleships were frequently assgined to escorting duties.
“The babies that get hungry every four days are a nuisance."
- Vice Admiral Ugaki Matome, Yamamoto’s Chief of Staff for the Combined Fleet
Weaker engine, yet heavier displacement. All those guns and armours adds up weight. Wasn't the slow speed one of Yamato's problem ?
Rechecking the numbers, Iowa had the same displacement and engine output as the Midway. Is the displacement for carriers includes the airplanes or without ?
In fictional scenario where they fight without their battle group, it will be who detect and strike the enemy first isn't it ?
The Yamato was capable of 27kn when running hot and 25kn normal (cruising speed was the same as the Iowa, 17kn), so she wasn't that bad for a super battleship weighing 70,000 l.tons.
The Iowa's boilers and the Midway's boilers were not the same, but close. However, the Iowa's turbines were superior in quality (burst speed was not as important to a carrier as it was to a fast battlship). No, the 'standard' displacement didn't include Aircraft when speaking of the Midway. Full load for Midway would add about 20,000 to 30,000 l.tons.
Who, the Iowa and the Midway or the Yamato and Zuikaku? Or did you mean the Iowa and Yamato? Because in the first scenario, no. Without a battle group, the Midway or Zuikaku would detect the Iowa or Yamato (late-war) first but still get curb-stomped. In the second, yes. The Iowa would detect the Yamato first and likely get the kill. (God help if the Yamato had been equipped with American Fire Control.)
LucasHidemiKomori said:
Don't forget the massive fuel consumption. In fact, speed and fuel efficiency was pretty much the reason why the aged Kongou-class battleships were frequently assgined to escorting duties.
It only gets worse the more powerful your engines are. The Iowas consumed two to three times the fuel that the Yamato did.
Who, the Iowa and the Midway or the Yamato and Zuikaku? Or did you mean the Iowa and Yamato? Because in the first scenario, no. Without a battle group, the Midway or Zuikaku would detect the Iowa or Yamato (late-war) first but still get curb-stomped. In the second, yes. The Iowa would detect the Yamato first and likely get the kill. (God help if the Yamato had been equipped with American Fire Control.)
Continuing on T43's comment, battleship vs carrier (generalized, no specific model)
In term of range, wouldn't the aircraft carriers able to project airplanes from far outside battleship's firing distance if they managed to detect the battleships first and keep the distance ?
The fact that the U.S supplied 80% of Japan’s fuel and 90% its aviation gas prior the war, the fact that IJN seized almost all the oil tankers (leaving only 30,000 tons of tankers to transport oil from Borneo oilfields to Japan's refineries), not to mention the negligence of shipping lanes defense certainly didn't helped things out.
And there's also the size of the area they had to defend: The southern width of Japan’s new empire was 6,400 miles. North to south it was 5,300 miles. The defensive perimeter stretched 14,200 miles, more than half the distance around the globe. The primary targets of the southern strategy, oil rich Borneo and the rubber plantations of Indonesia were 4,100 miles from Japan.
Continuing on T43's comment, battleship vs carrier (generalized, no specific model)
In term of range, wouldn't the aircraft carriers able to project airplanes from far outside battleship's firing distance if they managed to detect the battleships first and keep the distance ?
Okay then, now I'm following you. The direct answer to the question you ask is yes, the CV would be able to project airplanes from far outside battleship's firing distance if they managed to detect the battleships first and if they keep the distance. The problem is, they wouldn't be able to beat the Battleship that way. All they'd be able to do is run. If it was the Iowa (or, worse, Montana, had she been completed) chasing them, that wouldn't mean much and both of them were faster by quite a bit.
The correct answer to your earlier question would be 'No', the Battleship would win in a One on One every single time barring some critical failure or mishap. This is especially late in WW2 (if the IJN ships had been in top condition, which they weren't). (Note: For the context of this explanation, I'll keep this to WW2 [including CV Midway] for now.)
The reason is simple. [expand=Explanation] While it's true that the CV would certainly detect the BB first due to scouting planes, this actually doesn't mean much in the long run. For a Carrier, detection alone does not allow them to begin the attack, it only allows them to begin sending up an air wing.
Consider this, WW2 Aircraft Carriers could launch 2 aircraft per Sortie (Midway could launch 4), each taking about 15 (burst) to 25 (normal) minutes to complete (10 to 15 was the speed of the Midway and the Essexs when using Conventional Aircraft). By the way, this only gots worse after Jets came into play. No Flight Commander was dumb enough to attack a battleship (or other heavily AA armed surface vessel) with just two to four aircraft, outside of a desperation attack (as in the case of the 3 Taffys off Samar), because they'd just be swatted down like flies. Instead, they'd want a Surface-Attack flight (anti-ship, not Ground Attack), which in WW2 meant 12 to 30 aircraft. Normally, these aircraft would come from multiple Carriers, but in this case we only have one to work with, meaning that it'd take an entire hour just to get the 12 aircraft in the air (why else do you think the Attack Radius of Carrier Planes is so much less than half their Maximum Range? It's not for a Dog fight, I assure you, it's that they've burned up so much fuel waiting for the other members of their wing to get in the air). Now compare this to a Battleship which can attack 30 seconds after enemy detection.
Speaking of detection, there's an important point that needs to be made. If we are comparing two ships of the same technological level, (for instance Yamato and Zuikaku or Iowa (1944) and Midway) then you'd have to realize that they'd have the same radar arrays. Surface to Surface Detection capability is nowhere near as far ranged as Surface to Air Detection; and, thanks to the Curvature of the Earth, the BB could detect the Scout Plane at the same range that the Scout Plane could detect the BB. There's something else though. In WW2, the Scout Planes were operating off of Optical search capabilities (Eyeballs, in other words. The Radar equipped planes were too expensive to keep in the air continuously, even for the Americans, so they were reserved for the Night Attack role). (In fact, American radar was so good that the Iowa actually would have stood a good chance to detect the scout plane first and possibly even shoot it down.) There's yet another thing to pull from this. Unless the carrier was on an attack mission (We will assume that they are not, since the side that is Attacking will always have the advantage. We will assume that this is a chance encounter) Scout Planes circled the Carrier that they launched from. Everyone knew this, including the Battleship crew. Therefore, spotting the Scout Plane may as well have just told the BB that the Carrier was there, roughly where it is, and which direction to charge towards should the decide to attack it. Meaning, that the CV's advantage would likely just up and disappear... while they are still launching their fighters/bombers.
Speaking of fighters/bombers, it took over 300 such aircraft to overwhelm the Yamato's AA grid. It didn't matter that they weren't all attacking the Yamato, it mattered that the Yamato was trying to attack them and panicking because there were too many targets. An Iowa wouldn't have had this problem, thanks to Radar Controlled Guns (the AA crews would just be responsible for loading the guns and pulling the trigger)... this isn't counting the VT Fuses, the much higher throw weight, or the fact that its 16s could be used as AA Guns. Now consider that the highest number of Aircraft ever carried operationally on a carrier is the Midway's 134. And I mean, EVER. The only other carrier to get close to this was the Lexington V (CV-16) during the war, and they had to remove most of the crew support areas of the ship in order to do it (not a good idea). For a comparison, the Zuikaku could carry a grand total of 72.
That's why both the Japanese and the Americans operated their carriers in fleets (once the Americans got their head in the game, that is), giving birth to the two most powerful forces ever put under control of one man the IJN Combined Fleet and Fast Carrier Attack Force (Task Force 38/58), since lone Aircraft Carriers are sitting ducks for Heavy Gunfire attacks (and the Americans loved Heavy Gunfire back then just as much as the Japanese loved Torpedoes). But this is a One on One no battle-groups allowed slugfest, the CV is alone against a ship designed to be the most powerful single vessel on the waters (not saying that they succeeded).
[/expand]
Realistically speaking, the BB would wind up shooting down all of the CV's planes, and the CV would run away. If the BB was a Fast battleship, it'd Chase down the Carrier and fill it full of holes.
In fact, a modern BB Battle Group would still kill any Carrier group on the water. For less cost. Did you know it would only cost $5.3 billion USD to build a modernized stealthy Montana-class battleship that had a top speed of 37kn, nuclear power, missiles everywhere (in addition to its 4 modern auto-loading 2-gun turrets), Anti-Air Missiles (a whole lot of them), would shrug off several direct hits from China's new Anti-Carrier missiles (or even a direct hit from a Nuclear Tomahawk), costs ~$100 million a year, and could strike anything within 1200 miles with the force of a tactical nuke? In comparison, the Ford-class costs over $11 billion (not counting aircraft and munitions, which is another billion easy), is only moderately stealthy (being ~300 feet tall out of the water will do that), is large enough to have a football match on (either type of football), nuclear powered, top speed of 32kn has a maximum attack range of ~400 miles (the F-35C Lightning II would increase this to 600), not that much defensive power of its own, and costs half a billion dollars a year to keep useful.
Seriously, the actual reason that why the US navy hasn't built more Battleships (and I've heard this out of Navy Command's own mouth) is that 'they're too scary looking'. I have news for them, it's a warship it's supposed to be scary looking!.
Logic Required. I'm a Defense Engineer, I did the math. What part do you want me to give citation for? (Don't say 'all of it', I need to know for me to answer you.)
Logic Required. I'm a Defense Engineer, I did the math. What part do you want me to give citation for? (Don't say 'all of it', I need to know for me to answer you.)
Despite the fact that both Yamato and Musashi, the two largest battleships ever built (in girth, the Iowas are actually longer) are beat by Zuikaku? I don't think just being a 'Battleship' has anything to do with it.
What I say is, before the Battleship could ever see the Carrier. It'll be swarming with planes already.
That was something that I cannot provide a source directly for, as I was involved in its design and it is still classified. Therefore, I'm not going to break up the actual cost sheet for such a ship, because it'd reveal classified information and I'd be tried and likely executed for treason. However, I can provide information that I believe would make the figure that I stated believable.
Firstly, keep in mind that the Iowa herself cost about $100 million when they built her. Adjusted for inflation, that would be $1,410,507,211.94, adding the modernization in the '80s (about the cost of an Oliver Perry FFG in 1973 [when they were ordered] was roughly $194 million USD, or $1,003,685,380.09 USD adjusted for inflation), and the US Navy's complaint about further modernization ($1.3 billion, current estimate, among other things this added a COTS AEGIS control center and 20 Mk 57 GMVLS units, it also replaced the dated power supply with a [single] Nuclear equivalent), you have a combined cost of $3,714,192,592.03 USD. Therefore, for $3.7 Billion USD, you could have a brand spanking new Iowa-class BB rolling off the line. Though, really, it would be cheaper if you just do all of the work in one sitting (especially considering the pieces that are removed each time, the current modernization plan removes all of the 5” guns and replaces them with RIM-116 RAM launchers) and didn't have to spend time and money figuring out the work of someone else. Also, guess what, the price of steel has gone down from the '40s (when adjusted for inflation). $1.6 billion extra is cost is from adding another turret, lengthening the hull (the citadel isn't much bigger than on the Iowa, so it doesn't cost much at all since it's an 'all or nothing' design), replacing the props with pump-jets, and adding another reactor.
Just in case that doesn't explain it well enough, I actually can make another case entirely and design us an entirely different battleship right here that costs $5.3 billion or less, if you want to be like that. However, it'd be distorted out or proportion and many of the figures would be intentionally nerfed and she wouldn't have the incredible range of the design that I mentioned. This is because I can't talk about such things openly, so you'd have to accept that first. Even though a good chunk of it would be public knowledge, I still can't talk. On a 'completely unrelated matter', Confidentiality Agreements made with the US Government should be kept at high cost.
What I say is, before the Battleship could ever see the Carrier. It'll be swarming with planes already.
Just ask Bismarck... And Musashi herself.
The question part of that was rhetorical, used as a set up for the statement. I apologize, I should have used clearer terms (I realize now that even I'd have gotten confused by what I typed).
But regardless, for reasons stated in my ridiculously long post above, in a one Carrier vs one Battleship scenario the carrier would get crushed a reliably high percentage of the time as long as the Battleship was equipped to handle air swarms. That is to say, the Musashi and her really weak AA would theoretically be sinkable by one aircraft carrier. However, the Yamato in her late war form would take a lot more than one carrier to sink, with estimates flying around placing the magic number at 6 carriers minimum. The Iowa in her late war form would have taken 11 carriers to overwhelm her, and she still had a chance of recovering if one of her 16s connected.
Air-Surface warfare is a numbers game, in the case of a single carrier vs a battleship the numbers just favor the heavily AA armed battleship.
grand_zero said: or even a direct hit from a Nuclear Tomahawk.
Recycling one of the arguments of "Why Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull sucks", the structure of the battleship may be able to survive the blast, the intense heat and shockwaves caused by a nuke, but you can't really say the same about the crewmen inside: think of putting eggs inside a steel box and dropping it on the floor.
The EMP generated by the nuke would probably damage the battleship electronics and the nuclear fallout would be also a problem: even with nbc protection systems, the surface of the battleship would need to be throughly decontaminated afterwards.
Recycling one of the arguments of "Why Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull sucks", the structure of the battleship may be able to survive the blast, the intense heat and shockwaves caused by a nuke, but you can't really say the same about the crewmen inside: think of putting eggs inside a steel box and dropping it on the floor.
The EMP generated by the nuke would probably damage the battleship electronics and the nuclear fallout would be also a problem: even with nbc protection systems, the surface of the battleship would need to be throughly decontaminated afterwards.
In general, you are correct.
However, there are quite a few counter measures that could be taken to reduce the effect of this by quite a lot. Heat and shockwave are very lethal, yes. But with the appropriate usage of dead space and bulkheads, the effect could be lessened to the point of survivability. Some (pretty major) burns and a few (quite possibly major) concussions, many of these leading to death or permanent disability... hey, I never said that the crew would want to survive for the first few minutes after impact, did I? And yes, those eggs would shatter, but if you add several layers of kinetic energy dampeners and the world's largest tub of impact absorbent (the Ocean) most of those eggs would fine.
The damage potential of EMP has been well known since the '70s, and in their '80s redeployment, the Iowas' Armored Citadels were hardened against it (with a giant Faraday shield). This would knock out the radar arrays and the satellite up-link, but even the '80s Iowas had backups for these (please note that I didn't say the back up was sensible).
However, the radiation would kill the crew (unless you went with ridiculous levels of armor or were using Oil Fired boilers). No question. Even with NBC, it's not that good when you're on the surface just a few hundred feet from detonation. In modern times, a Battleship (by itself) is a Second Strike Weapon, designed to absorb one hit and then have 4 or 5 days in which to conduct their final mission: see to the end of mankind and start Global Thermal Nuclear War (Which is why the 4 Iowas were originally armed with 4 ~1500nmi Nuclear Tomahawks during their '80s deployments).
However, the real strategic point of a Battleship is to present your opponent a threat that can only realistically be taken down with a Weapon of Mass Destruction and therefore allow you to use all of your Nuclear Stockpile at will and whim. Which is why no one ever did anything to them (in fact, they had the Soviet Navy running scared, and most of them will admit it). Alternatively, they'd make one super L / CC.
No. Most Defense Engineers actually don't work for a governmental agency, instead working for places like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Vought, or Colt; who in turn work for DOD or somesuch on contract. There are a few of us that work directly for the DOD, but they work for DARPA and... well, not many of us actually want to work for DARPA, even though the benefits are 'quite luxurious' (compared to what most of us are used to), but the working environment is harsh, to say the least. Myself, I prefer not having big brother breathing down my back 24/7. It allows me my more 'questionable hobbies'... like (according to them) being here on Danbooru.
the_redstar_swl said:
Haha, always funny when you see people trying to justify using battleships for modern navies. Almost as hilarious as the morons who want to restart production of WWII or Korea-era aircraft.
You know, I usually hear canned responses like this, but the ones saying them are never able to actually present a case in their own favor and debate me for it. On the contrary, if you feel yourself to be different, let's hear your case. I assume it's okay with everyone here as long as things remain civil (and we use the 'No Bump' check box).
However, the real strategic point of a Battleship is to present your opponent a threat that can only realistically be taken down with a Weapon of Mass Destruction and therefore allow you to use all of your Nuclear Stockpile at will and whim. Which is why no one ever did anything to them (in fact, they had the Soviet Navy running scared, and most of them will admit it).
Killing (or crippling) a modern battleship wouldn't be that expensive, considering that modern torpedoes (such as the Mark 48 and the Spearfish) are designed for under-keel explosions against surface ships and no practical amount of armor can counter that (actually all that armor would be more of a liability).
But of course, if you have no way of developing or purchasing such technological wonders there's nothing much you can do... *cough* RE-class BB *cough* *heck*
Killing (or crippling) a modern battleship wouldn't be that expensive, considering that modern torpedoes (such as the Mark 48 and the Spearfish) are designed for under-keel explosions against surface ships and no practical amount of armor can counter that (actually all that armor would be more of a liability).
But of course, if you have no way of developing or purchasing such technological wonders there's nothing much you can do... *cough* RE-class BB *cough* *heck*
Not really. A 'backbreaker' torpedo loses its 'special effect' against heavy ships, above say 25,000ltons (in today's navy, only the Carriers weigh more than this, admittedly). At that point, you're just dealing with a 650lb underwater explosion . In other words, you're dealing with 7lb larger explosion then our WW2 Mk14Mod2 torpedo. Which, admittedly, is enough to kill most ships... but not a Battleship. Take this into consideration. The Mk14 was also a Backbreaker torpedo, when it worked. In WW2, the Yamato absorbed at least 3 of these, and the submariner's report was that the torpedoes 'worked as designed' and blew under the keel. According to the Japanese, they heard a loud explosion and later found a few dents in her underbelly, but nothing was thought about it as the damage was negligible. Now consider that the Yamato's underwater protection scheme was worse than the Iowa's (which also stunk, btw) and we're using modern theory to design our armor, so it'd be quite a bit better by default.
Seriously, most of the claimed 'power' of modern torpedoes (as compared to old-fashioned torpedoes) is just hype that amounts to nothing much more than propaganda. They are no more 'powerful' than the Mk14... they are just extremely accurate. Just like comparing a M60 to a M25, same power but one hits more often... and they both do little of nothing to a tank unless they hit a sensor, which only gives the tank a bad day.
The majority of Torpedo damage comes from Shock and Concussion dealt to the underbelly structure of the ship, which is why they pass through traditional armor schemes. Defeating Torpedoes using Armor is merely a question of appropriate placement of the Armor Plates, Void Space, Filled Space, and the ability of the ship to keep the weight afloat. Honestly, from what I've heard, the reason why they equipped the Nixie to the Iowas wasn't because torpedo damage could so easily knock the ship out of commission, but because such damage is a real pain (and expense) to repair.
However, the day of the Submarine-Surface threat is rapidly drawing to a close because some bright mind figured out that defeating a torpedo is remotely similar to defeating anti-surface missiles... you shoot it with another torpedo. 4 years later, we can now hard-kill torpedoes. Enter the DCL Technology Demonstrator Program.
I am proud to be able to state with confidence that the system (in its Super Capital Ship mounted form) could easily counter and defeat the treat of 60 simultaneous torpedo launches (using 120 micro torpedoes each wave, admittedly)... and it could handle another wave every 6 seconds (or less than the time it took for the intercepting micro-torpedoes to impact). Or, in other terms, it'd take the the brunt of 15 Virginia-class submarines at the same time and quite potentially out-last them as well (having more micro-torpedoes than they did torpedoes... yes, they'd have that many [over 600] of the things). Not to mention, that the first Torpedo wave would give away the submarines positions and the battle-group would have sunk them by the third wave. If given priority (and ships to put them on, since the only new-school ship-class capable of fitting it is the Zumwalt, and it'd eat into the flight deck), this system could be ready in as little as 3 years. Far shorter than it would take to get a BB out and about (8 years).
Oh, it's off topic, but an Aircraft Carrier can't equip this system. It'd cut into the hanger space far too much... a BB has no such restriction.
Since it was brought up elsewhere, I suppose I should clarify some things here.
Clarifications
grand_zero said:
I'm a Defense Engineer, I did the math.
Not quite. Amateur Defense Engineer (still makes really dumb mistakes here and there)? Yes. Works with and for Defense Engineers? Yes. Defense Engineer by trade? No. I'm the faceman for the team (please don't call me a salesman), and as such I have price quotes for much of the equipment placed on war machines. Therefore, I did the math using the information available to me and asked a few questions of my co-workers (the actual engineers) to get to that price point. Note that a Modernized Montana design wouldn't be the optimum BB design for today's world, even with everything I mentioned built into it (stealth, etc), as it'd lack adequate Torpedo and Submarine defense. It'd need a Carrier's budget to be much better.
grand_zero said:
I'd be tried and likely executed for treason.
No, this was intended as comical over-exaggeration, I didn't expect anyone to take this literally. The treason charge would require detailed explanations of how the components/technology actually worked, which I wouldn't have given anyway. I would, however, be put in prison.
grand_zero said:
even a direct hit from a Nuclear Tomahawk
The Nuclear Tomahawk carried a W84 warhead, which had a variable yield rating of 0.2 to 150kt. Therefore, if the ship could survive a hit from 200 tons of TNT, it could theoretically survive a direct hit from a Nuclear Tomahawk. My BB design, I'm told, would have 'survived' up to 45kt (surface detonation) when in perfect condition; anything above that would have a good chance of vaporizing it outright (and give excuse to use the enduring stockpile). I feel I should point out that, technically speaking, the Nagato survived a 15kt nuke (Castle Bravo), but sunk 5 days later because the Pagoda-style tower the Japanese used required immediate correction upon listing (which was caused due to the damage that she had already sustained during the war collapsing in the explosion, and not the explosion itself), but this couldn't be done because she was too radioactive to enter. This wouldn't be a factor for the theoretical BB, since the crew would be listed as dead anyway.
grand_zero said:
If given priority (and ships to put them on, since the only new-school ship-class capable of fitting it is the Zumwalt, and it'd eat into the flight deck), this system could be ready in as little as 3 years.
The Burkes and Ticonderoga-class ships are old school, and can accept the launcher. There are options in consideration to make the Micro-torpedoes fit in a VLS cell as well, but these will come later than the 3 year point.
The majority of Torpedo damage comes from Shock and Concussion dealt to the underbelly structure of the ship, which is why they pass through traditional armor schemes. Defeating Torpedoes using Armor is merely a question of appropriate placement of the Armor Plates, Void Space, Filled Space, and the ability of the ship to keep the weight afloat.
Yeah, that's a good description of TDS, but...
LucasHidemiKomori said:
Killing (or crippling) a modern battleship wouldn't be that expensive, considering that modern torpedoes (such as the Mark 48 and the Spearfish) are designed for under-keel explosions against surface ships and no practical amount of armor can counter that (actually all that armor would be more of a liability).
As said here, isn't the primary damage mechanism of modern heavy torpedoes using the ship's own weight to break its keel? Opening a void under the center of the keel such that the midship sections (now without any buoyancy, what with no longer being surrounded by water) drop beneath the ends of the ship and the keel goes snap?
I mean, weight distribution is a major thing; if my memory isn't fooling me right now, I think I remember reading about how a new battleship (a hell of a long time ago - pre-WW2?) broke and sank due to being badly laid out.
Think of a big steel girder - the keel, perhaps - held on both ends (such as might be found in a ship with ends still supported by buoyant force and its middle unsupported, like with a void opened up underneath it by a torpedo) such that its own weight forces it to bend downwards. Now add tens of thousands of tons on top of the keel to the equation.
As said here, isn't the primary damage mechanism of modern heavy torpedoes using the ship's own weight to break its keel? Opening a void under the center of the keel such that the midship sections (now without any buoyancy, what with no longer being surrounded by water) drop beneath the ends of the ship and the keel goes snap?
I mean, weight distribution is a major thing; if my memory isn't fooling me right now, I think I remember reading about how a new battleship (a hell of a long time ago - pre-WW2?) broke and sank due to being badly laid out.
Think of a big steel girder - the keel, perhaps - held on both ends (such as might be found in a ship with ends still supported by buoyant force and its middle unsupported, like with a void opened up underneath it by a torpedo) such that its own weight forces it to bend downwards. Now add tens of thousands of tons on top of the keel to the equation.
Is this incorrect?
No, that's quite correct. But the problem is, the void generated by the explosion must equal an amount (determined by the weight distribution and structural stability) of the ship's length (pp) and beam (at waterline), otherwise the edges still touching the water will support the weight of the ship. Much like a two-point bridge. In the case of a Battleship, you have to consider the length, width, weight, and (more importantly) structural stability of their armored citadel, compared to the length, structural stability, and weight of their... not armored parts.
Now, for a more practical example... let's use the Iowa as our example. ... I actually just spent the last 4 hours figuring out the entire weight of the Iowa split into its components, but honestly that's too much information, so I'll cut to the chase (everyone around me is falling asleep anyway, including the driver, so it looks like I'm hailing a cab in the wee hours of the morning).
In American battleship design, the citadel included everything from ~4ft fore of Turret 1's barbette to ~4ft aft of Turret 3's barbette, if I remember correctly (and it has been a while since I looked at my measurements) this gave the citadel a length of about 600 feet (593, I think). There are 5 major load bearing points across its length, the conning tower, the fire rooms (engine rooms), and the 3 Turrets. Structurally, 2 of them are more important: Turret 1 and Turret 3... as odd as this may sound; as long as those two points were sound, connected to each other, and not pulled under the waterline; the ship could reasonably float. Now, this is given the structural reinforcement that comes from having 3 armored decks across this entire distance, which acts to hold the entire thing together (and is something that modern ships, save aircraft carriers, lack). ... In other words, if I'm right and my drunken/hangover-influenced 'calculations' are correct (and I think they are), in order to use the backbreaking effect on the Iowa, that torpedo would have to generate a void large enough to swallow the Zumwalt or a WW1 Battleship whole... and, given that there are weight centers outside this area (the second and third armored decks continue some 200ft beyond Turret 3, and the foreship is also armored throughout) it may not even work then (although I would wager that it'd structurally ruin the ship in the long run).
Judging by the available videos, the void generated by the Mk48 can't be any bigger than 2 or 3 hundred feet, and that's pushing it... So, the effect is wasted on any large well designed ship of 350ft or longer... If just you increase the explosive (setting aside the complications of doing that)... Now this is purely speculative, but I don't think even the Long Lance itself would have generated enough of a void to break the Iowa's back. ...Mind you, like that, they'd still have a pretty large chance of sinking from the new hole just blown in their bottoms. I don't think very many ships ever built could take that thing to the underbelly.
... ...I think that answers your question. I'm going to go take an aspirin or something and go die for the day. My head's killing me.
Myself, I prefer not having big brother breathing down my back 24/7. It allows me my more 'questionable hobbies'... like (according to them) being here on Danbooru.
Lol, nice to see an actual defense engineer here on Danbooru
Never heard of a nuclear physicist though... A cosmonaut would be fine too.
I guess there is a lot of people from the computer science/development areas like me here...
well, though it's not a profession, you can say I'm from computer development too. college student, computer engineering major, 2nd semester, to be specific
Alright, probably I'll share what would be my thoughts about the aircraft carrier vs battleship argument regarding to the history of engagements.
A very long list of Naval Battles
Last Battle of Bismarck
Somehow a short but crucial demonstration of a Carrier vs Battleship, Biplanes from HMS Ark Royal were the first to locate Bismarck's position while conducting air recon, also the planes manage to damaged Bismarck's rudder which unable for the battleship to maneuver away from the rest of her enemies. I would say that the biplanes greatly contributed for the sinking of Bismarck since if it wasn't for the damaged rudder, Bismarck might have got away.
Attack on Pearl Harbor
This event considered as the first demonstration of aircraft carrier's effectiveness to conduct long range aerial attacks from the sea. The attack was divided into two waves which also divided into several groups and sections. The first wave consisted of 183 planes, which are 89 B5Ns, 51 D3As, and 43 A6Ms. The second wave consisted 171 planes, which are 54 B5Ns, 82 D3As, and 36 A6Ms. All planes lunched from the aircraft carriers Akagi, Kaga, Souryuu, Hiryuu, Shoukaku, and Zuikaku. The priority of the attack is to cripple USN's symbol of naval superiority which are their battleships.
From the two waves, the damages that the carriers caused to the battleships: The battleship USS Arizona, she took an 16 inch armor-piercing shell inside her magazine which exploded and sunk her. USS Oklahoma, she took five torpedoes before capsizing. USS West Virginia, took two bombs and seven torpedoes before sinking, she was rebuild and was recommissioned. USS California, she took two bombs and two torpedoes before sinking, she was also rebuild and recommissioned. USS Nevada, took six bombs and one torpedo, she was breached but later again was rebuild and recommissioned. USS Tennessee and USS Maryland both were damaged by two bombs. USS Pennsylvania was hit by a bomb and debris from USS Cassim. And Ex-battleship USS Utah was hit by two bombs.
The third possible wave was cancelled due to the increasing potential of American AA defense, Japanese carriers cannot conduct night operations which would be too risky for them, they want to minimize aircraft lost as much as possible, and they already accomplished their main objective.
Despite that the tremendous damage the USN suffered from the surprise attack, the Japanese lost 29 planes.
This event leaded the United States to enter World War two in both Pacific and European theatres.
Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse
Though it wasn't a carrier vs battleship fight (since all aircraft that were used were land-based), it was a demonstration of the effectiveness of aerial attacks against battleships without a good AA defense. HMS Prince of Wales has a speed of 28.3 knots, she was only armed with thirty-two QF 2-pdr Mk. VIII guns as the only AA guns she had while HMS Repulse, able to run 31.5 knots, armed with two 3-inch AA gun for AA defense, their main cannons aren't that effective against aerial engagements, so they have virtually not enough AA weapons to defend against the Japanese superior planes.
The attack, the first wave consists of 8 G3Ms attacked Repulse, 1 bomb manage to hit the battlecruiser. The second attack consists of 17 G3Ms, 1 torpedo delivers a fatal hit on Wales. Repulse somehow manage to dodge hits from the third attack while Wales suffered 3 torpedo hits, Repulse sunk on the fourth attack after suffering many hits from G4M Bombers and Wales damage is already unsustainable which she later capsized and sunk.
The Japanese attack force scored four successful torpedo strikes out of 49 torpedoes while losing only 3 aircraft in the engagement, 4 hits confirmed on Wales while 2 confirmed hits on Repulse (the other 2 hits are still unconfirmed). Prince of Wales was the first capital ship that has been sunk by an aerial attack.
Raids in the Indian Ocean
Also not a carrier vs battleship fight, but this battle shows the potential capabilities of the aircraft carriers for naval warfare and the important used of effective AA guns to repel against these attacks. Japanese aircraft carriers Akagi, Ryuujou, Hiryuu, Souryuu, Shoukaku, and Zuikaku conducted air raids against the Royal Navy. The raid sunk the CVL HMS Hermes, 2 CAs (Cornwall and Dorsetshire), 2 DDs (Tenedos and Vampire), a armed merchant cruiser, a corvette, a sloop, and 23 merchant ships and more than 40 aircraft were destroyed while the IJN suffered more than 20 planes lost in battle.
This battle won the Japanese a decisive victory in this battle.
Battle of Coral Sea
Again not a carrier vs battleship fight, but this battle shows the vulnerability of an aircraft carrier in naval warfare. And note that this was the first true carrier-to-carrier engagement of the war in the Pacific and there's wasn't a single gun-to-gun engagement during the battle. The IJN force consisted of the carriers Shoukaku and Zuikaku, and the light carrier Shouhou which also includes 6 CAs, 3 CLs, and 13 DDs, engage against the American carriers USS Lexington CV-2 and USS Yorktown CV-5 which includes 9 CAs, a CL, and 15 DDs.
The American lost USS Lexington after suffering 4 attacks, (2 aerial bombs and 2 torpedoes) from the enemy aircraft before she was scuttled by USS Phelps DD-360 while USS Yorktown was damaged from the battle, 69 American planes were destroyed. While the Japanese lost Shouhou after suffering 13 bombs and 7 torpedoes from enemy aircraft both from Lexington and Yorktown, Shoukakou suffered 3 bombs from enemy aircraft that heavily damaged her, and Zuikaku's air complement had depleted, they lost 92 planes in the battle.
The Battle of Coral Sea somehow incapacitate both Shoukaku and Zuikaku for the battle of Midway.
Battle of Midway
Though there isn't any present battleships the directly involved to this fight, it is noteworthy since it was the most decisive carrier-to-carrier engagement in the War of the Pacific and marks the end of the Japanese offensive operation in the Pacific waters. The battle was a direct confrontation from the IJN fleet carriers, Akagi, Kaga, Hiryuu and Souryuu, against the two USN fleet carriers USS Enterprise CV-6 and USS Hornet CV-8 until Yorktown join the battle, the IJN suffered a catastrophic four fleet carriers lost while USN lost Yorktown.
This battle which puts the aircraft carrier as the main naval military asset of any fleet.
Battles of Solomon Island
A series of naval engagements which the USN finally taking advantage of aircraft carriers potentiality in naval battles. Also the engagement which put Enterprise as the face of the US fleet as the only fleet carrier who was the only able fleet carrier who is present in the Pacific and will fight the Japanese till the bitter end. The Japanese had two objectives, one is to eliminate the presence of the American Fleet in the Southern Pacific Water and to crush Henderson Field.
The Battle of the Eastern Solomons was the first carrier-to-carrier battle in the Solomons Campaign, Enterprise together with Saratoga engaged the Japanese Fleet, Enterprise also met her rival Shoukaku and Zuikaku. It was a fierce aerial combat which the battle resulted to a draw. The IJN lost the light carrier Ryuujou with 75 planes lost, and several ships were damage during the fight including Shoukaku. Enterprise also suffered damage from the fight with 20 aircraft lost but it wasn't enough to put her out of battle.
The Battle of Santa Cruz Island was another carrier-to-carrier engagement in the Solomons Campaign but this time it demonstrate another Carrier vs Battleship engagement. This time Enterprise was together with her sister Hornet while escorted by several ships including the USS South Dakota BB-57, they engage with the same fleet Enterprise engaged in the Eastern Solomons, again it was a fierce battle which heavily damaged Enterprise and Hornet suffered hits from Japanese dive bombers until comp she was totally crippled, then after a failed attempt to scuttle her, the destroyers Akigumo and Makigumo launched torpedoes and finally bringing her down, while South Dakota able to defend herself with AA guns took moderate damage from the aircraft. The USN won a strategic victory in this fight since they prevented the Japanese fleet to destroy the Henderson Field and manage to damage Shoukaku, Zuihou, and several other ships and destroyed 91 planes which cost the USN 88 planes. A very significant battle that put Enterprise as the face of American Fleet.
The next battles were Battle of Bismarck Sea, Battle of Kula Gulf. Battle of Vella Gulf, Battle off Horaniu, Battle of Vella Lavella, and Battle of Empress Augusta Bay were series of engagements between destroyers, cruisers, and land-based aircraft, no battleship or carriers ever involved.
The raids in Rabaul was conducted by carriers USS Saratoga CV-3 and USS Princeton CV-23, the allies to clear any possible threat for the invasion of Bougainville. The carriers launched their planes and attacked a group of 10 cruisers and 11 destroyers. The attack damaged 6 cruisers with 52 aircraft destroyed while the USN lost 10 carrier-based aircraft and 17 land-based aircraft.
Naval Battles in Guadalcanal
Though aircraft carrier didn't played a significant role in this series of naval battles (until Enterprise contributed for the sinking of Hiei). This was a known ship-to-ship engagement that demonstrated fire power, tactics, and the ability to outmaneuver enemies.
The Battle of Savo Island won by the Japanese by sinking 3 Allied CAs, damaging USS Chicago and 2 DDs, without a formidable escort group the Allies pulled out their fleet carriers away Guadalcanal since they are now aware that aircraft carriers are too vulnerable against direct enemy ship engagement, this somehow disabled air support for the Operation Watchtower.
The Battle of Cape Esperance is a naval battle which prevented the Japanese to conduct bombardment at Henderson Field to support the Tokyo Express, the Allied Navy surprised the Japanese when the crossed the T, the formation somehow prevented the Japanese for entering the shore which they immediately retreated to avoid further losses. The IJN lost 1 cruiser and 3 destroyers, and 1 cruiser suffered from moderate damage during the operation. The USN lost 1 destroyer and another destroyer was damaged from the engagement. The battle was considered as a game of chance, and somehow improves the American tactics in night battles.
The 1st and 2nd Naval Battles of Guadalcanal considered as the bloodiest close-quarter naval combat in whole Pacific War. The IJN deployed two fast battleship, Hiei and Kirishima accompanied by several ships to neutralize Henderson Field as their pivotal objective. The engaged the defending American Battleships in two phases of battles, Hiei was the battleship, first to sunk after receiving beating from 5 inch guns, bombs from B17, and torpedoes from Avengers, she was notable for the first Japanese Battleship to sunk in battle. While the 2nd battle was considered as one of the only two known battleship-to-battleship engagement of the Pacific, Kirishima fought USS South Dakota BB-57 and USS Washington BB-56, Kirishima was also lost in battle while the two American Battleships escaped, South Dakota suffered moderate damage.
The Battle of Tassafaronga was the last major naval engagement in the whole Guadalcanal campaign which involved cruisers and destroyers. The American force attempt to make a surprise attack on the Japanese fleet escorting the Tokyo Express. The American fleet was successful on the surprise and manage to sink one destroyer but the Japanese somehow quickly reacted and fired torpedoes at the American fleet sinking one cruiser and damaging additional three cruisers. The rest of the Japanese convoy successfully escaped from the battle. The Japanese won tactical victory against the Americans.
Battle of the North Cape
Though there weren't any aircraft involved or even present to this battle, this was the last battle between big gun capital ships which demonstrated the effectiveness of good radar equipment during naval battles. The Royal Navy scored another victory.
The ships that were involved in this fight was the battleship, HMS Duke of York, the heavy cruisers, HMS Norfolk, the light cruisers Belfast, Sheffield, and Jamaica, and nine other destroyers against the German Battleship Scharnhorst. Scharnhost objective is to attack the Arctic Convoys and prevent war materials from the Western Allies to reach the USSR. While the Royal Navy was making sure that the convoy would reach their destination without further interruption.
The battle begins when Scharnhorst spotted the Force which consisted of one heavy cruisers and two light cruisers, both side exchange fire, the battleship was hit twice, a shell destroyed her radar blinding her for battle. Scharnhost decided to circle them, the rest of the cruisers stay on position protecting the convoy, the battleship approached them once more and gunfire again was exchange. This time Scharnhost scored hits on heavy cruiser, Norfolk, disabling her turret and radar. The battleship sailed south, the escorts decided to give a chase but Sheffield and Norfolk suffered engine problems and dropped back. Meanwhile the Duke of York together with four destroyers are approaching the area and detected Scharnhost, the Belfast fires at the battleship to illuminate her and York open fires and scored a hit on Scharnhost's foremost turret. Scharnhost manage to score two hits at York which cuts her radar cable, but York responds with a shell pierces through Scharnhost armor belt and destroyed a boiler room. The battleship is now crippled, the rest of the destroyers fired their torpedoes at Scharnhost and scored four hits which reduced the battleship's speed to 10 knots though the destroyer Saumarez taken several hits Scharnhost secondary armament. The York and Jamaica resumed fire, Belfast fired from the north, and the rest of the destroyers fired another 19 torpedoes at Scharnhost and finally capsizing and sunk in action.
As Scharnhost had been downed, York was lightly damage, Norfolk and Saumarez suffered moderate damage from the engagement.
Operation Hailstone
Another carrier raid launched by the USN on the island of Truk and notable for Iowa's first naval operation in the Pacific which she was assigned for shore bombardment along with New Jersey.
Truk Island was the center operation command of the IJN's combined fleet in the Pacific. The USN objective is to prevent the Japanese for reinforcing Eniwetok Atoll. The Japanese feared that Truk is a vulnerable location for any Allied assault, so they immediately relocate most of the naval asset to several ports they have controlled.
The USN Fleet consisted of 8 fleet carriers, including the Enterprise, 4 light carriers, 7 battleships, 45 other warships, and 10 submarines with 589 aircraft. While the Japanese already conducted ship evacuations a week ago, the ships that were present there were five cruisers, four destroyers, several auxiliary ships, and fifty merchant ships with 350 aircraft present at Truk.
The raid sunk the light cruisers, Agano, Katori, and Naka, four destroyers, Oite, Fumizuki, Maikaze, and Tachikaze, three auxiliary ships, two submarine tenders, three smaller warships and twenty-seven merchant ships. Katori will be notable for the first ship to be downed by the Iowas and Agano was sunk by USS Skate SS-305 while she was en route to Japan, Maikaze and several support ship tried to escape but was caught by enemy gunfire from the surface ships.
The Japanese countered by conducting a nighttime torpedo attack using land-based aircraft from either Saipan or Rabaul, damaged the USS Intrepid while Iowa suffered one bomb hit from an aircraft.
The attack caused the USN 25 aircraft mainly due to the heavy presence of ant-aircraft gun in the island while 270 Japanese aircraft were destroyed during the engagement.
Operation Tungsten
A Carrier vs Battleship fight in the European waters, a fight which demonstrate a well coordinated aerial strike and how hard a battleship to take down if she was equipped with a formidable anti-air defense. The Royal Navy sent 40 dive bombers and 80 fighters, to disabled or to completely annihilate the German Battleship Tirpitz, German's last battleship and considered as the possible remaining biggest threat for the Allied convoy.
Planes will be launched from Royal Navy Fleet Carries, HMS Furious and HMS Victorious, and escort carriers, Emperor, Pursuer, Searcher, and Fencer. The planes will be used are Barracuda dive-bombers, corsairs, and hellcats. The bombers are armed with 1600 pound armor-piercing bomb dropping form 3500 or higher altitude that would penetrate Tirpits deck. Meanwhile the German had four heavy AA guns and seven light batteries were stationed at the shore, several anti-aircraft vessels and destroyers were moored near the battleship, while Tirpitz was fitted with 68 anti-aircraft guns.
When the raid began, the British forces caught the Tirpitz by surprise, and as the British planned, the first priority is to silence the the battleship's anti-air defense and on shore, the attack inflicted heavy casualties and damage Tirpitz'z main anti-aircraft control center. Then 21 Barracudas entered the fight and dropped bombs at Tirpitz, 10 bombs made a direct hit but some of them didn't able to penetrate the battleship's deck since it was dropped in a low altitude, the bombs tolled heavy casualties.
As the second wave began, the fighters again silence several AA guns while the Barracudas dropped bombs at Tirpitz, the battleship suffered another 1600 pound bomb and four 500 pound bomb just within a minute as the second wave starts. The British decided to use smokescreens to hid themselves against the AA guns to escape from the engagement.
Though the two waves of aerial strikes were successful it didn't completed the objective of neutralizing Tirpitz for good and the battleship still able to conduct further operations several days after the attack. The result of the operation was considered as inconclusive.
After Operation Tungsten, Tirpitz becomes the main target of many aerial raid operations, she's been dodging and absorbing aerial strikes on her whole career.
Battle of the Philippine Sea
Though it was considered as a carrier-to-carrier battle, battleships played significant role for the AA defense against the attacking aircraft which nicknamed the battle as "The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot". Notable for the first major large scale naval battle which Iowa-class battleships participated. It was the largest single naval battle in World War 2 and the largest carrier-to-carrier battle ever recorded.
USN Fleet consist of 7 CVs, 8 CVLs, 7 BBs, 8 CAs, 13 CLs, 58 DDs, and 28 SSs with a total of 956 aircraft, the fleet includes the veterans, Enterprise, South Dakota, Washington, San Francisco, and Indianapolis. While the IJN gathered their remaining force forming a fleet which consist of 5 CVs, 4 CVLs, 5 BBs, 13 CAs, 6 CLs, 27 DDs, and 24 SSs with 450 carrier-based aircraft and another 300 land based aircraft, the fleet includes the surviving carriers which attacked Pearl Harbor, Shoukaku and Zuikaku, the armored carrier Taihou, the two Japanese Supper-battleships Yamato and Musashi, and the two veteran fast battleships Kongou and Haruna.
Since IJN's pilot were poorly trained, the USN shoot down Japanese aircraft as many as possible, though South Dakota surely wasn't lucky again since another bomb hit her deck moderately damage her. Meanwhile the submarines, Cavalla and Albacore fired torpedoes at Shoukaku and Taihou which later the two carrier sunk.
The USN conduct air recon to spot the location of the attacking Japanese fleet spotted the fleet with a great distance away from the US fleet. Though it was risky since it would required the aircraft to fly blind at night, they still launched the attack not giving the IJN to recover. The counterattack somehow sunk the light carrier Hiyou and damaged, Zuikaku, Junyou, and Chiyoda as well as the Battleship Haruna, the US lost 20 aircraft during the attack.
After the counterattack, it was prove quite disastrous, some of the aircraft were already losing fuel while others were out trailed to their destinations. The fleet decided to illuminate their searchlight despite of they were aware of a possible submarine attacks. But still it's quite a mess since some of the aircraft miss their based carriers, while others almost clash at each other while landing.
This battle was considered as the end of the Japanese aerial superiority of the Pacific the USN still aware that the Japanese could still posed a threat because of the presence of their most formidable warships, Yamato and Musashi.
Battle of Leyte Gulf
A naval battle which I would say the most decisive naval engagement in the whole battle in the Pacific. Again the Japanese had to gather their remaining able warships in a final effort to restore the old glory of their fleet. It was the largest Naval Operation in World War 2 and consider as the largest naval battle ever recorded in terms of the total tonnage of ships participated, and total tonnage of ships that sunk, the battles were divided in several fronts stretching more than two hundred miles and I would consider that each battles had a ship crowning moments.
The USN objective is to recapture the Philippine island to cut off crucial oil supply from Dutch controlled Indonesia and British Malaya. While the IJN objective was to annihilate the presence of all American Ships in the Philippines.
There are two USN fleet which are present in this battle, the 7th Fleet which will launched the invasion of Leyte and the 3rd Fleet which would provide cover for the 3rd fleet. The USN has 8 fleet carriers, 8 light carriers, 18 carrier escorts, 12 battleships, 24 cruisers, 166 destroyers, numerous number of PT patrol boats, submarines, and auxiliary ships with about 1500 aircraft.
While the IJN force is divided into three force, the central force which their mission is to annihilate the 7th fleet, the southern force which will strike the landing area and provide support for the center force, and the northern force which will lure the powerful 3rd fleet away from the 7th fleet. The entire force consist of 1 fleet carrier, 3 light carriers, 9 battleships, 18 cruisers, and more than 35 destroyers with more than 300 aircraft including the land-base.
The Battle in Palawan Passage were the first action of the Battle of Leyte Gulf, submarines tandem USS Darter SS-247 and USS Dace SS-227 spotted the center force, the two submarines tried to intercept them and fired torpedoes at the heavy cruisers Atago and Maya which they sunk, and damaged the heavy cruiser Takao.
The Battle of Sibuyan Sea is another decisive carrier vs battleship fight, considered as Musashi's last stand. USS Interpid and USS Cabot launched the first wave of aircraft and attacked Yamato, Musashi, and Nagato, the first wave damaged Heavy Cruiser Myoukou. The second wave of attack came from Interpid, Essex, and Lexington, which slowly crippling Musashi and the fatal blow was deliver by the third wave from Enterprise and Franklin which capsized her. Musashi withstand 17 bombs, 19 torpedoes, and 18 near missed attacks from six carriers before sinking, her crew was rescued by Shimakaze. The Central Force temporary withdraw from their position but later entered the San Bernardino Straight for a surprise appearance.
The Battle of Surigao Straight was one of the only two battleship-to-battleship engagement in the Pacific and probably the last. Can be considered as Pennsylvania, Maryland, Tennessee, West Virginia, Maryland, and California sweet revenge from what happen to them at Pearl Harbor, though they took it on the wrong ships. The American Battleship group were conducting bombardment at the island of Leyte when the Southern force consisted of Battleship, Fusou and Yamashiro, heavy cruiser Mogami, Ashigara, and Nachi, ligh cruiser Abukuma, and escorted by destroyers Michishio, Yamagumo, Asagumo and Shigure. The Japanese somehow had crossed the T and the formation of battleships somehow fired numerous shells at them. The battle sunk Fusou, Yamashiro, Mogami, Michishio, Yamagumo, and Asagumo, and damaged Nachi, Abukuma, and Shigure.
The Battle off Samar, the most centered battle of the Battle of Leyte Gulf and considered as the most mismatched naval engagement in history,. The Task Unit 77.4.3 or "Taffy 3" was caught sitting duck for the center force. But despite of the greater potential of enemy ships in every aspects, the group of destroyers, destroyer escorts, and escort carriers decided to fight till the very odds. Both Taffy 1 and 2 provided air support to stall the center force, then destroyer Johnston, Hoel, Heermann, as well as destroyer escort Samuel A. Roberts engaged the enemy ship with thier 5 inch guns and torpedoes. Despite that the Battleships had little less AA defense, the aircraft weren't enough to bring down the battleship, though somehow it caused too much confusion the center force withdrawn the engagement. Also USS Gambier Bay was the last carrier to be sunk by a surface vessel and only carrier to be sunk by a battleship shell proving that carriers will be totally vulnerable when engaging direct confrontation against naval guns. The USN lost 2 destroyer, a destroyers escort, and 2 escort carrier, while 1 destroyer, 2 destroyer escorts, and 3 escort carriers were damage with 23 planes lost. The Japanese suffered, 3 heavy cruiser sunk, and 3 heavy cruiser, and 1 destroyer damaged with 52 planes lost.
The Battle of Cape Engaño was the last action of Leyte Gulf. The result of the 3rd Fleet taken the bait and was lured by the Northern Force away from the 7th Fleet. Norther Force used Zuikaku, the last surviving fleet carrier of the IJN which attacked Pearl Harbor, as the main bait together with other Light Carriers, Zuihou, Chitose, and Chiyoda, and two world war 1 battleship-carrier hybrid Ise and Hyuuga while escorted by 3 light cruisers, Chiyodo, Isuzu, and Tama with 9 destroyers. Engaged the 3rd Fleet consist of 5 fleet carriers, 5 light carriers, 6 battleships, 8 cruisers, and 40 destroyers. The 3rd fleet sunk Zuikaku and the rest of the light carriers, damaged Ise and Chiyodo, and sunk 2 destroyers.
The last action was when Tama torpedoed by USS Jallao SS-368, on Cape Engaño.
The IJN's lost in Leyte Gulf marked the end of their naval might, and which had now opened the last stages of the war in the Pacific. Most of the Japanese warships remained at dock and never set sailed again being critically damaged or deprived from fuel.
Battle of Ormoc Bay
A series of air-to-sea engagements near Leyte Island, the Japanese final effort to resist American invasion of Leyte Island which would served as an American forward base of operation in the southwest Pacific to isolate Japan from its crucial oil supplies coming from Southeast Asia. Naval engagements which totally required speed since most of the vessels were involved are destroyers. Notable for the engagement that sunk the people's all-time-favorite Shimakaze.
Japanese objective is to reinforce their troops in Leyte Island in able to further resist the American invasion as soon as possible. Troops and supplies convoys will be coming from Manila and they will used all available fast naval vessels they had which includes the Japanese fastest destroyer Shimakaze. The Americans spotted the convoy and the day after, land-based aircraft from Morotai Island dispatched 32 B-25s escorted by 37 P-47s, the raid sunk two transport ship, two patrol craft escorts, and disabled one transport which cost them seven bombers. The second convoy was attacked by the 3rd Fleet Task Force 38 which dispatched 350 aircraft, the IJN lost four destroyers, Shimakaze, Wakatsuki, Hamanami, and Naganami, and addition three transport ships. The third convoy was attacked by another wave of aircraft, five out of six transport ships sunk.
The USN began sending destroyers at Ormoc Bay, they send the mine sweepers, Pursuit and Revenge, and four destroyers Waller, Pringle, Renshaw, and Saufley where they would shell the dock of Ormoc. Japanese submarine I-46 was spotted heading to Ormoc Bay, Waller somehow picks the submarine on her radar, she fired the first shot and disabled the I-46 to submerge, then the rest of the destroyers fire at the submarine and sunk her.
The fourth convoy was attacked by PT boats and aircraft, all five ships sunk. The fifth convoy was escorted by Japanese destroyers Take and Kuwa, the convoy reached the dock but engaged the American Destroyer Allen M. Summer, Cooper, and Morale, the destroyer manage to sunk the battleship and were attacked by P1Y bombers, and engage exchange of fire against the Japanese destroyers, Kuwa sunk, Take torpedoed Cooper and escape, Cooper received damage which later sunk her, the convoy successfully resupplied the Japanese in Leyte.
The US began the landings in Ormoc City unopposed but the destroyers Ward and Mahan were attacked by kamikazes which sunk them. The sixth convoy intercepted by aircraft sinking all five transport and damaging the destroyer Ume and Sugi. And the seventh convoy manage to land troops in the island again while they lost the destroyers, Yuuzuki by aircraft, and Uzuki by PT boats, while Kiri suffered damage.
The USN suffered a lost of 3 destroyers, 1 high speed transport ship, and 2 LSMs, while Japanese lost 6 destroyers, 20 small transport ships, 1 submarine, 1 Patrol boat, and 3 escort vessels. The battle ended when the Americans finally gained full control of the island.
Operation Catechism
The last stand of the German Battleship Tirpitz, Tirpitz had already survived several aerial operations after Operation Tungsten. The Royal Air Force Bomber command dispatch 32 Avro Lancaster heavy bombers to finally finished Tirpitz off for good.
Tirpitz used her 38cm guns to disperse the incoming bombers but couldn't break the incoming attack, the bombers dropped twenty-nine 5400 kg bombs at the battleship, two of the bombs directly hit and one near miss. A bomb penetrate the deck between her turrets but failed to explode while the hit between the aircraft catapult and the funnel. Then fire from her deck spreads till it reaches her ammunition magazine which reaches one of her turret and exploded, then she rolled over rapidly and she was buried in the sea floor.
Tirpitz suffered two 5400 kg bombs direct hits and one near miss before sinking, approximately 200 of her crew survived the sinking. While the British received one damaged bomber from the engagement.
Operation Ten-go
The the most decisive carrier vs battleship battle ever. Yamato's final effort to defend Okinawa against the superior American fleet. The Super-battleship Yamato together with light cruiser Yahagi and eight destroyers which the primary objective was to stop the invasion of Okinawa with everything they've got, Yamato carries 162 AA guns, and her 18.1 inch naval gun could fire an anti-air shell against aircraft. The IJN's fleet will be intercepted by the USN consist by 11 carriers escorted by 6 battleships, 11 cruisers, and more than 30 destroyers with 386 aircraft. USN was aware that the Japanese is using kamikaze against them which had already sunk several ships during the early engagements.
The first group of aircraft arrived and attacked Yamato, Yahagi suffered a direct torpedo hit which completely stop her, then another six torpedoes and twelve bombs hit her, the destroyer Izokaze attempted to rescue her crew but Izokaze was attacked and sunk, Yahagi sunk afterwards.
While making evasive maneuver from enemy aircraft, Yamato was already hit by two armor-piercing bomb and a torpedo but it wasn't enough to bring her down. The first wave also damaged the destroyer Hamakaze and Suzutsuki, Hamakaze sunk afterwards.
The second and third wave again attacked Yamato, the aircraft dropped eight torpedoes and fifteen bombs which several made direct hits. The damage already crippled Yamato and somehow reduced her effectiveness.
Another 110 aircraft launched by the Americans and as Yamato making a sharp turn, she suffered three sharp hits from torpedoes which ripped her port side, Yamato already took further fatal damage and was inevitable for sinking. The fire ignites on her main magazine and Yamato exploded and sent a mushroom-shaped cloud almost 20,000 feet in the air which believed have downed several aircraft.
Asashimo was bombed by aircraft and later sunk while Kasumi was crippled and had to be scuttled. Though Suzutsuki's bow was already torn-off from the fight, she still manage to get home after that battle. The surviving destroyers, Fuyuzuki, Hatsushimo, and Yukikaze able to rescue the crew from Yamato, Yahagi, Hamakaze, Asashimo, and Kasumi.
Despite of Yamato's effective AA guns, the carriers still able to gang up the massive warship and send it on a blaze of glory. The USN somehow lost only 10 aircraft during the battle but 1 carrier, 1 battleship, and 1 destroyer were moderately damage due to kamikaze attacks, 100 aircraft were used for kamikaze.
Yamato was hit by at least 11 torpedoes and 6 bombs. There may have been many but those weren't confirmed.
Bombings of Kure Harbor
A reenactment of the Attack in Pearl Harbor, the last naval engagement of the Pacific, and probably the last Carrier vs Battleship fight. Carrier raids conducted by both Royal Navy and US Navy to put out all possible naval assets of the Japanese for good.
The American fleet launched 1,747 aircraft, the first wave sunk Japanese Carrier Amagi, the cruiser Ouyodo, the battleships, Haruna, Ise, and Hyuuga, heavy cruisers, Tone and Aoba, and old cruisers Iwate and Izumo.
Then the British launched an attack and damaged the carrier Kaiyo and several ships.
The attack on Kure resumed and inflict greater damage on Ise and Aoba. Carriers Katsuragi and Ryuuhou suffered damage from the aerial attacks.
The last attack was from 79 B-24 bombers which four bombs hit Aoba.
From this series of air raids, the US lost 133 planes the highest lost of aircraft the USN had in the whole war, most of them caused by the heavy anti-air defense around Kure.
Operation Crossroad
I know this isn't a naval engagement but where talking about comparison between carriers and battleships. This operation demonstrate the durability of these ships and their ability to withstand a nuclear attack.
Out of 94 ships they used for the experiment, I'll be only mention aircraft carriers and battleship. They used the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga CV-3 and USS Independence CVL-22. And for the battleships, They have USS Arkansas BB-33, USS Nevada BB-36, USS New York BBI-34, Pennsylvania BB-38 and the Japanese Battleship Nagato.
The first test codenamed 'Able', the test was to dropped a nuke from a B-29 Superfortress. They make Nevada as the target so they painted her red-orange.
The bombed was dropped, their positions away from the ground zero: Independence is 560 yards, Nevada is 615 yards, Arkansas is 620 yards, and Saratoga is 2,265 yards.
The Result: two sunk, one capsized, and eighteen damaged. All carriers and battleship survived the explosion without receiving any damage.
The second test codenamed 'Baker', the test was to detonate a bomb 90 feet below water.
The bomb was detonated, their position away from the ground zero: Arkansas is 170 yard, Saratoga is 450 yards, and Nagato was 770 yards.
The result: ten ships were sunk. The explosion below immediately destroyed battleship Arkansas and the carrier Saratoga sunk while Nagato able to stand still for five days before finally sinking. Nevada was extremely damage and was radioactive.
The fate of the battleships and the carriers after the operation, USS Nevada survived the explosion and becomes a practiced target ship for the Iowa. USS New York survived the explosion becomes a target ship of aircraft and naval gunfire, USS Pennsylvania survived the explosion and was used in another nuclear test again which finally sunk her, and USS Independence was scuttled due to radioactivity.
In fact, a modern BB Battle Group would still kill any Carrier group on the water. For less cost. Did you know it would only cost $5.3 billion USD to build a modernized stealthy Montana-class battleship that had a top speed of 37kn, nuclear power, missiles everywhere (in addition to its 4 modern auto-loading 2-gun turrets), Anti-Air Missiles (a whole lot of them), would shrug off several direct hits from China's new Anti-Carrier missiles (or even a direct hit from a Nuclear Tomahawk), costs ~$100 million a year, and could strike anything within 1200 miles with the force of a tactical nuke? In comparison, the Ford-class costs over $11 billion (not counting aircraft and munitions, which is another billion easy), is only moderately stealthy (being ~300 feet tall out of the water will do that), is large enough to have a football match on (either type of football), nuclear powered, top speed of 32kn has a maximum attack range of ~400 miles (the F-35C Lightning II would increase this to 600), not that much defensive power of its own, and costs half a billion dollars a year to keep useful.
Seriously, the actual reason that why the US navy hasn't built more Battleships (and I've heard this out of Navy Command's own mouth) is that 'they're too scary looking'. I have news for them, it's a warship it's supposed to be scary looking!.
Here is the problem with that statement.
BB (even modernized) is a one-trick pony. It can pretty much murder other ship with broadside, and it can launch missiles... but that's about it. Anything short of high-intensity conflict renders it an overkill (not to mention that 1200 mi range is only one-shot, and then it's back to 23 mi of 16"/50cal Mk7 or 100 mi with railgun if you are generous. So the range advantage cannot be sustained). And its complement of one helicopter leaves more to be desired.
CVN, on the other hand, is multi-mission capable. In addition to all those CAS missions, they can deploy SEAD, CAP with projection range at over 300 mi. Also, in humanitarian missions, CVN can also serve as helo port. Remember that modern conflict has more to do with hearts and minds than slaughtering the other side.
My understanding is that American military places emphasis on flexibility. One-trick pony just don't quite fit into that paradigm.
BB (even modernized) is a one-trick pony. It can pretty much murder other ship with broadside, and it can launch missiles... but that's about it. Anything short of high-intensity conflict renders it an overkill (not to mention that 1200 mi range is only one-shot, and then it's back to 23 mi of 16"/50cal Mk7 or 100 mi with railgun if you are generous. So the range advantage cannot be sustained). And its complement of one helicopter leaves more to be desired.
CVN, on the other hand, is multi-mission capable. In addition to all those CAS missions, they can deploy SEAD, CAP with projection range at over 300 mi. Also, in humanitarian missions, CVN can also serve as helo port. Remember that modern conflict has more to do with hearts and minds than slaughtering the other side.
My understanding is that American military places emphasis on flexibility. One-trick pony just don't quite fit into that paradigm.
Just my 5 drachmae's worth.
The thing is, the modern supercarriers are massive resource guzzlers, and the Chinese's new intermediate-range missiles put serious doubt into whether there is any worth in a large carrier anymore. (Why use a multi-billion dollar weapon that can be taken out by a swarm of hundred-thousand-dollar missile systems? Especially since the missiles have longer range than the aircraft...)
As I understand it, a supercarrier costs something like $5 million each time it sorties a plane, as opposed to $2-3 million for cruise missiles. A fleet of smaller frigates and destroyers equipped with cruise missiles would be more fuel efficient and less vulnerable to missiles.
Helicopters, if you need them, can easily be operated by smaller, far, far cheaper escort carriers (if not destroyers, if you only need a few) and the military is already heavily considering just going for more VTOL aircraft, anyway. There's a reason almost every other military in the world, including the British, operate only smaller escort carriers, if any at all.
Basically, why buy the Swiss Army Knife weapon that tries to do a million things, but not nearly as well as a specialist, and with any single problem making every tool useless, when you can buy multiple copies of each individual tool for a total of less than the do-everything tool?
In fact, you might want to look up "Van Riper's Big Victory" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 ) where, in exercises, a Marine General defeated the American Navy using basically a whole bunch of cruise missiles and inflatable motor boats like they were PT boats or outright remote-operated suicide drones.
Like the defeat of the Spanish Armada to English fireboats (or in more modern gamer terms, the infamous "Zerg Rush",) naval combat is full of examples where quantity and cost-effectiveness just plain trump quality.
(In fact, if you look at the primary reason that a carrier was supposedly so great in the first place, it was that a swarm of smaller, cheaper, more expendable planes could beat a larger, more expensive ship.)
I won't argue with the rest of that (seeing as I agree on several counts), but Van Riper's "victory" during 2002 was just as much nonsense as the rest of the exercise itself, and then some. Anyone can "win" with reconnaissance elements that get treated as civilians because they say so, invisible lightspeed couriers, and anti-ship missiles fired from boats that are barely larger than they are.
The thing is, the modern supercarriers are massive resource guzzlers, and the Chinese's new intermediate-range missiles put serious doubt into whether there is any worth in a large carrier anymore. (Why use a multi-billion dollar weapon that can be taken out by a swarm of hundred-thousand-dollar missile systems? Especially since the missiles have longer range than the aircraft...)
As I understand it, a supercarrier costs something like $5 million each time it sorties a plane, as opposed to $2-3 million for cruise missiles. A fleet of smaller frigates and destroyers equipped with cruise missiles would be more fuel efficient and less vulnerable to missiles.
Helicopters, if you need them, can easily be operated by smaller, far, far cheaper escort carriers (if not destroyers, if you only need a few) and the military is already heavily considering just going for more VTOL aircraft, anyway. There's a reason almost every other military in the world, including the British, operate only smaller escort carriers, if any at all.
Basically, why buy the Swiss Army Knife weapon that tries to do a million things, but not nearly as well as a specialist, and with any single problem making every tool useless, when you can buy multiple copies of each individual tool for a total of less than the do-everything tool?
In fact, you might want to look up "Van Riper's Big Victory" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002 ) where, in exercises, a Marine General defeated the American Navy using basically a whole bunch of cruise missiles and inflatable motor boats like they were PT boats or outright remote-operated suicide drones.
Like the defeat of the Spanish Armada to English fireboats (or in more modern gamer terms, the infamous "Zerg Rush",) naval combat is full of examples where quantity and cost-effectiveness just plain trump quality.
(In fact, if you look at the primary reason that a carrier was supposedly so great in the first place, it was that a swarm of smaller, cheaper, more expendable planes could beat a larger, more expensive ship.)
CV has one job, launch planes.
Tis the planes that makes it multi-mission capable.
You can't recce with it, nor can you send food packet with a 16-inch cannon... unless you want to pull a molotov.
That exercise was a huge waste of time and money. The parameters does not even come close to modelling real life.
If each sortie costs $5m per plane, the navy budget would be drained just by re-certing all the pilots in the carrier air wing.
The reason jumpjet isn't used that much (you don't see them on land-based fixed wing, do you?) is because it has to sacrifice range in order to achieve S/VTOL. The F-35B was almost cancelled because of that.
Is BB cool? Yes. Is it useful in modern combat? Not really. Even if you cruise missile on it, it's still limited. Also there are DDs that can do that too on the cheap (relatively speaking).
There is a reason China went through that kind of loop to get their hands on a CV (even if it's just a hull): the kind of range CV can cover is far greater than any kinetic-energy-based weapon system. And its versatility covers everything from humanitarian mission to high-intensity conflict.
Parking a CV near an AO and you can pass it off as humanitarian missions, parking a BB... well it's kind of a declaration of war.
Tis the planes that makes it multi-mission capable.
You can't recce with it, nor can you send food packet with a 16-inch cannon... unless you want to pull a molotov.
That exercise was a huge waste of time and money. The parameters does not even come close to modelling real life.
If each sortie costs $5m per plane, the navy budget would be drained just by re-certing all the pilots in the carrier air wing.
The reason jumpjet isn't used that much (you don't see them on land-based fixed wing, do you?) is because it has to sacrifice range in order to achieve S/VTOL. The F-35B was almost cancelled because of that.
Is BB cool? Yes. Is it useful in modern combat? Not really. Even if you cruise missile on it, it's still limited. Also there are DDs that can do that too on the cheap (relatively speaking).
There is a reason China went through that kind of loop to get their hands on a CV (even if it's just a hull): the kind of range CV can cover is far greater than any kinetic-energy-based weapon system. And its versatility covers everything from humanitarian mission to high-intensity conflict.
Parking a CV near an AO and you can pass it off as humanitarian missions, parking a BB... well it's kind of a declaration of war.
I'm not arguing for battleships. I'm arguing for frigates and destroyers. As more of the functions of ships can be automated, you can have smaller crews and crew quarters and actual machinery in your weapons systems, allowing you to make more compact ships with the same or even more armor thickness and weapons but less total tonnage.
As drones become increasingly viable for multiple roles, they can generally be smaller, and be launched from smaller craft, VTOL even more so. Ripping out the cockpit saves a lot of mass and ups fuel efficiency.
The only reason range was all that necessary was to keep the absurdly expensive aircraft carriers out of range, but with that no longer an option, going with a decentralized plan of multiple frigates, destroyers, and possibly escort carriers that have overlapping missile defense systems makes more sense.
And since when does nobody notice a freakin' carrier task force in the area? The notion that someone would consider any ship but a carrier an act of war, while the carrier, which carries those other ships around it as an escort, wouldn't be considered an act of war is flat nonsense.
This thread is full of Military stuff that we actually had an actual defense engineer helping us. Good God Danbooru, I've already saw Physicists and Mathematicians, this is just a treasure trove of knowledge and pictures.
I won't argue with the rest of that (seeing as I agree on several counts), but Van Riper's "victory" during 2002 was just as much nonsense as the rest of the exercise itself, and then some. Anyone can "win" with reconnaissance elements that get treated as civilians because they say so, invisible lightspeed couriers, and anti-ship missiles fired from boats that are barely larger than they are.
"Because shooting everyone you find at all suspicious is a great modus operandi and won't cause the locals to support whatever resistances exist against you" -Source: Vietnam-
"Invisible Lightspeed Couriers don't exist" -Source: Someone who cannot understand how putting a box with a hole cut in one side over a lamp is enough to flash a Morse code message-
"Anti-ship missiles cannot be fired from small boats" -Source: Someone who doesn't seem to realize missiles have effectively no recoil, so a guy with a laptop and a missile sitting on a rail on top of a RAFT can fire one just fine-
What was really BS about that exercise was the fact that they forced them to follow a script for most of it.
HP matters little since carriers' performance is from the pilots and Kaga has more experience
amazingFirst carrier division is nothing!!Yamato : 153,553 HP
Musashi : 150,000 HP
Tone : 152,189 HP
Chikuma : 152,915 HP
Mogami : 154,226 HP
Mikuma : 154,056 HP
Suzuya : 154,000 HP
Kumano : 153,698 HP
Akagi : 133,000 HP (after remodelling)
Kaga : 127,400 HP (after remodelling)
Souryuu : 152,483 HP
Hiryuu : 153,000 HP
Shoukaku class : 160,000 HPTop ranking ship by engine outputBring me the Yamato-class!