Reimu must be getting upset, that basically Shimakaze stole her thunder last Comiket. I expect to see a Touhou vs. Kantai Collection war pretty soon. There can be only one all non-human girl moe series.
D_The_Man said: Reimu must be getting upset, that basically Shimakaze stole her thunder last Comiket. I expect to see a Touhou vs. Kantai Collection war pretty soon. There can be only one all non-human girl moe series.
One is a commerical freemium game made by a team of people for the sake of making money. The other is a labor of love made by one guy and shared to the world because he's a nice guy.
Any similarity between the two is superficial. Kind of like how people were comparing MLP and touhou awhile back.
The great battle of our age will not be fought in the fields of war, but on the internet. And its contestants will be youkai and battleships that look like little girls.
The great battle of our age will not be fought in the fields of war, but on the internet. And its contestants will be youkai and battleships that look like little girls.
I don't think so. But while it's come on quick and has become very popular, there were still double the amount of circles there for Touhou. Although that's partially because of Touhou Day which is a convention unto itself.
This isn't a judgment on Kantai Collection. But maybe while it stole a little of Touhou's thunder, by one of the only calculable measures we have, it says Touhou is still more popular, at least on that end. Not to mention it's been doing it longer. It remains to be seen as more KanColle comes out if it can sustain its growth and reach Touhou's level.
While both series have their charm I wouldn't want to see an actual versus situation it be too one sided -_-
I don't know about that.
If Touhou's rules were applied to Kantai Collection, the ship girls would be gods or youkai. Consider the sheer number of man hours and lives poured into their construction, maintenance, and destruction? Not to mention that they basically had an entire country's hopes poured into them and in the modern in-universe era, the world's.
If an umbrella can become a person after years of neglect, what happens to a battleship that died with 3000 thousand men and was left at the bottom of the sea for 70 years?
Obviously Kantai Collection hasn't really gone into detail just what the hell the girls and the Abyssal Fleet are. They do something like have the girls bare the memories and experiences of the ships they are meant to personify, but then they turn around and say "girls that are decommissioned return to civilian life" which contradicts the whole thing.
Personally, I would have gone that route from the beginning. They are not human. They are the manifested spirits of the ships themselves. The mecha musume elements, the rigging is special equipment developed to allow them to use the "spiritual" power they possess.
They are one of a kind. There aren't hundreds of Nakas running around being an idol. However they are born, they aren't being minted but summoned rather. If a ship girl is "sunk" she doesn't become an Abyssal ship, but instead returns to whatever circumstances she faced prior to being born as a ship girl, ready to be called back into action when summoned again.
Abyssal ships are original and foreign existences. The human-like ones are mimics of the ship girls and develop personalities of their own over time.
Just my 2 cents of how the whole thing should work.
Anyways, I kind of feel like Touhou will go on forever. Kantai-Collection will be finished within a year.
If Touhou's rules were applied to Kantai Collection, the ship girls would be gods or youkai. Consider the sheer number of man hours and lives poured into their construction, maintenance, and destruction? Not to mention that they basically had an entire country's hopes poured into them and in the modern in-universe era, the world's.
If an umbrella can become a person after years of neglect, what happens to a battleship that died with 3000 thousand men and was left at the bottom of the sea for 70 years?
Obviously Kantai Collection hasn't really gone into detail just what the hell the girls and the Abyssal Fleet are. They do something like have the girls bare the memories and experiences of the ships they are meant to personify, but then they turn around and say "girls that are decommissioned return to civilian life" which contradicts the whole thing.
Personally, I would have gone that route from the beginning. They are not human. They are the manifested spirits of the ships themselves. The mecha musume elements, the rigging is special equipment developed to allow them to use the "spiritual" power they possess.
They are one of a kind. There aren't hundreds of Nakas running around being an idol. However they are born, they aren't being minted but summoned rather. If a ship girl is "sunk" she doesn't become an Abyssal ship, but instead returns to whatever circumstances she faced prior to being born as a ship girl, ready to be called back into action when summoned again.
Abyssal ships are original and foreign existences. The human-like ones are mimics of the ship girls and develop personalities of their own over time.
Just my 2 cents of how the whole thing should work.
Anyways, I kind of feel like Touhou will go on forever. Kantai-Collection will be finished within a year.
Unless they let ZUN stick the shipgirls into his work afterwards; the shipgirls stuck me more like kami, with the ability to divide themselves and to incarnated around human faith.
One is a commerical freemium game made by a team of people for the sake of making money. The other is a labor of love made by one guy and shared to the world because he's a nice guy.
Any similarity between the two is superficial. Kind of like how people were comparing MLP and touhou awhile back.
To be fair, describing Touhou to someone who has no idea what it is, I would honestly use MLP as one of the first things to relate it to.
I find this whole kinda frustrating because I find Touhou charming whereas I just find Kantai Collection...Well, awkward-feeling-inducing.
That and I dislike browser/smartphone-type games. Touhou I can at least always enjoy the music for, even when I can't play the games.
Also, not only is Kantai Collection more deliberately fanservice-y, but as someone who had two grand-relatives in the war...It rubs me the wrong way.
I don't have a grudge---none of the people playing or making Kantai Collection were around for the war, obviously---but it just rubs me the wrong way seeing something my family suffered through being turned into otaku drool fuel.
I have to draw the line somewhere.
Trust me. I *tried* to like it. But it never clicked for me the way Touhou did, and bothered me for reasons that Touhou never did.
So seeing so many people drop Touhou like a hot potato is like being at a party with friends you like and then finding out the party is a costume party with a theme you were never warned about.
And at any rate people keep telling me the actual gameplay portion of Kancolle isn't that engaging anyway. :U I'd rather just be playing Pokemon.
(As for Idolmaster...I know prettymuch nothing about it, so neutral here!)
If a war commenced, Danbooru will be an obvious front.
UnlimitedBaconWorks said:
Trust me. I *tried* to like it...
Please don't do that, no one is forcing you.
Though I dislike it at first probably because of the atrocities the IJN commited during the war, until something convinced me that this is reality and butt-hurting about the past isn't going to help. Liking it depends on your perspective. Kancolle somehow thought me many things, I get to know more about world war 2 technologies, naval warfare, interesting feats of the war, historical events of various countries, and inspiring heroism of the soldiers from both sides that served during the war.
I kind of feel like Touhou will go on forever. Kantai-Collection will be finished within a year.
As long as someone keeps on putting firewood on their flames, no one is going to die.
BrotherJohn said:
lol..seem people starting new trend after similar thing like Negi Vs Kirito or Son Goku Vs Superman.
That is something we must avoid as much as possible.
Anyway, as a Touhou fan (which I'm still), I found this offensive, Touhou is not even desperate just because Kancolle somehow grabbed some of its spotlight during the last Comiket. Compare to Touhou, Kancolle hasn't reach half of Touhou's popularity yet.
Others surely doesn't take things easily, why can't we just enjoy both... peacefully.
This notion that the whole thing was fuelled by greed from the outset seems overly simplistic. The game was produced and maintained by a relatively small team. They didn't expect their silly little ship-girl game to blow up in popularity and they struggled to maintain it months afterwards (illustrated by the rationing of servers via a lottery system). There's also a statement saying that the game isn't very profitable yet it's intended that it continue running for the foreseeable future and that the franchise will rely on merchandise and other forms of media to grow. Surely, if something you make gets popular, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that you'd try to nurture it and earn a living and some savings (i.e. profit) from it? As someone who likes both I hardly care who produces the content as in either case, official or otherwise, there's plenty, and credit goes to where it's due.
Also, the idea of projecting your views of "wars" between fandoms onto fictional characters with established personalities (that you didn't even create) seems juvenile and dumb.
Usually, any games that are made by mega-franchised companies are made out of greed.
As much as I would like to agree, I've seen my fair share of stupid and sometimes even malicious business decisions in indie gaming (Steam Greenlight is a treasure trove for this).
Mostly just stupid, though---the lesson everyone is learning is that indie devs are often not business majors and thus lack time management/planning skills.
And I think people are claiming it's greedy because it's very increasingly targeted at the otaku demographic. While there's way worse, few people like actively wondering if they're being pandered to.
Please don't do that, no one is forcing you.
Though I dislike it at first probably because of the atrocities the IJN commited during the war, until something convinced me that this is reality and butt-hurting about the past isn't going to help. Liking it depends on your perspective. Kancolle somehow thought me many things, I get to know more about world war 2 technologies, naval warfare, interesting feats of the war, historical events of various countries, and inspiring heroism of the soldiers from both sides that served during the war.
Fair enough. The problem is that some parties in Japan have a bit of a reputation for WW2 revisionism and trying to drum up modern militarism, which makes portraying the U.S. ships as monstrous...Well, not sit entirely well with me.
On the other hand, I doubt that the Kancolle devs hold *that* much of a grudge, if any, and Japanese-speaking fans on Pixiv seem to really like the Abyssal ships, so at this point I don't entirely know what's going on. AFAIK no bad blood *seems* to be meant, or else people on my Pixiv list that have friended me back and speak Japanese probably wouldn't have friended me back. \_o_/
I just don't want Touhou to fade out because of something else.
That is something we must avoid as much as possible.
Anyway, as a Touhou fan (which I'm still), I found this offensive, Touhou is not even desperate just because Kancolle somehow grabbed some of its spotlight during the last Comiket. Compare to Touhou, Kancolle hasn't reach half of Touhou's popularity yet.
Others surely doesn't take things easily, why can't we just enjoy both... peacefully.
Yeah, I figure it's not in any danger persay right now, but it's still kinda jarring seeing Pixiv artists switch so suddenly and thoroughly. That and, as mentioned, the political aspect of it.
And if you want an example as to why someone would be concerned, take the example of System Shock 2, which sold pretty poorly in its day because it released juuust after Half-Life. And also because from what I can gather a lot of momentum in the Touhou fandom bled off after Ten Desires because a lot of people didn't like the game.
Not all of it, obviously (and IIRC there was also a big gap between Ten Desires and Hopeless Masquerade's release, which probably contributed). I see 4koma about the DDC crew on Pixiv, after all.
Anyway, that's my take on all this.
(P.S. And in the interest of disclosure, I'd probably soften up somewhat on Kancolle if they made the Abyssals playable.)
Well, if there's one problem that happens because of Kancolle, then it's when people are searching for naval battleships but then stumbled upon anime girls. ...It wasn't pretty.
As for me, I love Touhou, mainly because I can enjoy the stories, the world, and the character interactions more than most things these days. Also one of its most defining charm for me is the traditional feel it gave me. Kinda like when I watched Studio Ghibli's movies. Besides, it has fighting games! And the music too! As for Kancolle, sure there are those as well, but not quite enough. Only a few of them get that spotlight constantly, while many are left out. But I won't say that I don't like it. It is quite entertaining, mostly for reasons that Lunatic6 has said.
And yeah, I'm not really fond of the over-sexualization now. I am a guy and I love such things naturally, but there is a limit for that. Maybe I'm a bit strict, but if being more popular means having more porns being made out of them then it can have all of that popularity. This bothers me when people said that Kancolle had more doujins than Touhou in the last Comiket, but the only thing "more" are the H-doujins. Well, be as popular as you like then.
As for the artists...well, to put it simply, there's a new, plenty set of girls. That's pretty much it.
As for me, I love Touhou, mainly because I can enjoy the stories and the character interactions more than most things these days. Besides, it has fighting games! And the music too! As for Kancolle, sure there are those as well, but not quite enough. Only a few of them get that spotlight constantly, while many are left out. But I won't say that I don't like it, it is quite entertaining, mostly for reasons that Lunatic6 has said.
I wholeheartedly agree. I initially got curious about the gameplay and idea of Kancolle but the fact that I could even boot up the game made it not happen for me. Touhou was a different story there was plenty ways for me to get ahold of all the games and even introduce it to others. It got to the point that I became so enthralled with the game that I even went so painstakingly far as to find the print works which took me 6 months of actively searching for them and another month to find them translated. In that time I stumbled on Danbooru, which has introduced me to new games, animes, and original doujin works.
Kancolle was one of those games the peaked my interest but lost it after I couldn't even play. My curiosity just keeps me wondering about the mechanics and how it is as a game but I couldn't find any story or depth other than these are cute humanoid girls those are cute but evil monster like girls, help the humanoid girls defeat the monster girls.
Touhou however gave me a silly story but still a story nonetheless, relatable characters, music that I listen to outside of the games and print works, a fandom that I can connect with, and hours upon hours of playtime with friends.
Well, if there's one problem that happens because of Kancolle, then it's when people are searching for naval battleships but then stumbled upon anime girls. ...It wasn't pretty.
As for me, I love Touhou, mainly because I can enjoy the stories, the world, and the character interactions more than most things these days. Also one of its most defining charm for me is the traditional feel it gave me. Kinda like when I watched Studio Ghibli's movies. Besides, it has fighting games! And the music too! As for Kancolle, sure there are those as well, but not quite enough. Only a few of them get that spotlight constantly, while many are left out. But I won't say that I don't like it. It is quite entertaining, mostly for reasons that Lunatic6 has said.
And yeah, I'm not really fond of the over-sexualization now. I am a guy and I love such things naturally, but there is a limit for that. Maybe I'm a bit strict, but if being more popular means having more porns being made out of them then it can have all of that popularity. This bothers me when people said that Kancolle had more doujins than Touhou in the last Comiket, but the only thing "more" are the H-doujins. Well, be as popular as you like then.
As for the artists...well, to put it simply, there's a new, plenty set of girls. That's pretty much it.
Well, after this lovely discussion, I would like to bring you some good new, after all this heated debate. Zun is going to be a father soon! let's all have a universal toast for the new father to be!
This notion that the whole thing was fuelled by greed from the outset seems overly simplistic.
I wasn't talking directly about Kancolle though, I just giving a common view about mega-franchised games, any games requires profit in able to be maintained. Also, some could be hurting Touhou if they decided to download it on free torrent sites instead of buying the game.
Crab_Cake said:
Also, the idea of projecting your views of "wars" between fandoms onto fictional characters with established personalities (that you didn't even create) seems juvenile and dumb.
As much as it sounds ridiculously stupid in so many levels, this is the internet, things beyond sense always happen. But as much as possible, it would be better if this will be prevented.
UnlimitedBaconWorks said:
I just don't want Touhou to fade out because of something else.
Not gonna happen, as long as there are fans willing to support the series, the series will never fade, take Vocaloid for an example.
monhan said:
But I won't say that I don't like it. It is quite entertaining, mostly for reasons that Lunatic6 has said.
I'm glad that I'm not alone.
monhan said:
About Doujinshi
I find more easy to create doujinshi stories in Kancolle rather than Touhou, Touhou has more freedom compare to Kancolle which it's quite complicated to produce a good interesting story because complexity, while Kancolle, there are already lots of information about the kanmusus in the internet, and its more tolerable towards OCs compare to Touhou.
But anyway, more complex story is a requirement for a good doujinshi.
Diabolicwave said:
Kancolle was one of those games the peaked my interest but lost it after I couldn't even play.
I keep hearing reasons 'why they hate Kancolle because they couldn't play it', I too cannot play the game and I never will. (I had my own personal issues about online games).
D_The_Man said:
Well, after this lovely discussion, I would like to bring you some good new, after all this heated debate. Zun is going to be a father soon! let's all have a universal toast for the new father to be!
Uh, this is not a good post to talk about these things, but anyway, congrats for Zun.
Not gonna happen, as long as there are fans willing to support the series, the series will never fade, take Vocaloid for an example.
Didn't want to dip my hand into this argument but as a loyal (non-Hatsune)Vocaloid fan who doesn't play either Touhou or KanColle, I will say that Vocaloid in this place is a rather bad example.
It is very hard being recognizable as a Vocaloid fan who doesn't care for Hatsune these days, many Vocaloids both old and new are quickly fading into obscurity(at least in comparison to Touhou and KanColle) and the only one standing firm is the green leek girl which I don't care for(if these 2 paragraphs didn't tell made it clear to you already, I will say I am not a moe fan).
Unlike Touhou and KanColle which while they still do have Reimu and Shimakaze as the main series mascots, every other characters of both series still have a respectable, solid amount of fans. This is hardly the case for Vocaloid, where everything is dominantly colored green right now and other characters have constantly shrinking followings as they became more and more overshadowed by both fan and official promotions.
Vocaloid songs coming out now are almost exclusively Hatsune, Gumi, IA, Rin and Len, almost no one uses any other Vocaloids anymore and even then, the amount and popularity of songs coming out now still critically pale in comparison to what came out back in 2009-2010.
Well, after this lovely discussion, I would like to bring you some good new, after all this heated debate. Zun is going to be a father soon! let's all have a universal toast for the new father to be!
We're not really arguing though. But seriously? Congratulations to the man! Don't let him give beer to the baby!
I would say Vocaloid and maybe perhaps Fate stay night.
More like general Type-moon fandom, which still happens to be quite large despite Nasu being a king of Slowpokes.
About ZUN being father soon, congratulations and cheers! And I also don't know whether to congratulate or pity his child, who would possibly be the only child to get fanart since his/her birth :3
More like general Type-moon fandom, which still happens to be quite large despite Nasu being a king of Slowpokes.
About ZUN being father soon, congratulations and cheers! And I also don't know whether to congratulate or pity his child, who would possibly be the only child to get fanart since his/her birth :3
On the other hand, I doubt that the Kancolle devs hold *that* much of a grudge, if any, and Japanese-speaking fans on Pixiv seem to really like the Abyssal ships, so at this point I don't entirely know what's going on. AFAIK no bad blood *seems* to be meant, or else people on my Pixiv list that have friended me back and speak Japanese probably wouldn't have friended me back. \_o_/
I think that part of the reason for the Abyssal Girls' existence is that it would have been much harder to make dozens of unique designs to represent the entire U.S. Navy than it would have been to make a handful of generic mooks. However, after the introduction of the Germans, I'm not so sure anymore.
I don't care how popular the Abyssal Girls are; the thing that disturbs me the most about Kantai Collection is how it portrays World War II as harmless (in a way, this makes the Abyssal Girls' popularity even more disturbing). For a game that goes to such depth in the technicalities (almost every aspect of the character designs reflects the real-world ships), it's astounding how it doesn't acknowledge the gravity of the conflict at all. What about Pearl Harbor? What about the Rape of Nanking? As for the Americans, what about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What about the keeping of Japanese soldiers' body parts as trophies? Even the campiest of World War II-related media tends to recognize at least some of these offenses; Kantai Collection reduces the greatest conflict in human history into an otaku's wet dream. Normally I wouldn't mind something like Kantai Collection so much, but when the work in question is so widespread and tensions in the East are so high, such a work concerns me. Romanticizing history's tragedies makes it easier for them to repeat.
Is Idolmaster really a comparable third in popularity? I mainly see official art on Danbooru, so I assume it is just the parent company spamming out new characters to keep the franchise alive.
Is Idolmaster really a comparable third in popularity? I mainly see official art on Danbooru, so I assume it is just the parent company spamming out new characters to keep the franchise alive.
I'm surprised it's still a thing. My first experience with it was the mecha anime from years ago. The girls were all psychos...
Which is quite sad. They could've raised the existing characters instead of spamming new characters. Love Live seems to focus on the main cast, songs and concerts and stabilized there.
But social card game, need lots of card design.
This is at least the second Touhou KanColle popularity discussion actually.
PS: don't want the enemy ships to be officially USN. More freedom to devs for balancing. Military otaku is served with the playable ships already.
1.) It's not about the war, it's about the ships (even if the maps are very loosely based on battles from the war).
2.) Naval combat is as close to a gentleman's war as you can get. Far away from the land, not much opportunity to commit war crimes. All sailors know that if they violate the implied "rules" concerning saving the crews of enemy ships, then no one will be saved on either side.
There's Hachi and Makigumo's case, and that admiral on board of Tone But yeah, less civilian involved. There's also trivia that Japanese navy is based on the Royal Navy while the Army is based on the Prussian army
About war, didn't Girls & Panzer got the same reaction although on lesser extent. In Strike Witches, seems like everyone is to distracted by the pantsu
Strike Witches was about aerial combat, which is similar to naval combat in how impersonal it is. Even the fact that they based the characters off of real life people is glossed over in favor of the idea that they're "the daughters they never had".
I think that part of the reason for the Abyssal Girls' existence is that it would have been much harder to make dozens of unique designs to represent the entire U.S. Navy than it would have been to make a handful of generic mooks. However, after the introduction of the Germans, I'm not so sure anymore.
I don't care how popular the Abyssal Girls are; the thing that disturbs me the most about Kantai Collection is how it portrays World War II as harmless (in a way, this makes the Abyssal Girls' popularity even more disturbing). For a game that goes to such depth in the technicalities (almost every aspect of the character designs reflects the real-world ships), it's astounding that it doesn't acknowledge the gravity of the conflict at all. What about Pearl Harbor? What about the Rape of Nanking? As for the Americans, what about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What about the keeping of Japanese soldiers' body parts as trophies? Even the campiest of World War II-related media tends to recognize at least some of these; Kantai Collection turns it into an otaku's self-serving dream. Normally I wouldn't mind something like Kantai Collection so much, but when the work in question is so widespread and tensions in the East are so high, a work like this concerns me. Romanticizing history's tragedies makes it easier for them to repeat.
I do agree with this game not being 100% acceptable in the west, seeing that most parts of the world, are still suffering from the tragedies World War II. Hell, even if they decide to put U.S. Naval ships in the game, it still would be prone to stereotypes, and antagonistic tensions. This game seems to be riding the whole moe girl craze, and nothing but. If this game was smart(which i'm assuming it isn't, because again, this is nothing more than otaku drool bait), it would have showcased World War II, and all of the tragedies that occured in it, as well as become a striking history lesson for people of all nationalites. Had the developers actually did thier homework, this could have been one of the most historically accurate, and the most intelectually satisfying game on world war II. This is just like the latest Studio Ghibli film, "The Wind Rises". The movie got a lot of contreversy, for it's portayal of the construction of Japanese war ships, and apperently it didn't sit well with most western viewers, especially those who had family members, who served in World War II.
This game really doesn't offer much in actually educating people about World War II, and it sure as hell doesn't expose the revisionist bullshit, that the Japanese government has been trying to do since the 1960's. This game could have also been a bridge of peace between the Chineese, and Japanese citizens, especially the young citizens, and could have been a bridge of understanding one another. This game could have done so much more, but instead, it's just another generic moe-centric game, with little, to no value. Not to hate on the game or anything, but i found it extremly dissapointing, that this game didn't push the boundaries, and actually become a tool for peace, and understanding.
... that this game didn't push the boundaries, and actually become a tool for peace, and understanding.
What do you expect, this game isn't made to provoke other people.
Also, I think it will not be quite popular to the western countries especially the European countries because there are only limited naval engagements in the European Theater, most of the decisive naval battles were fought between the USN and the IJN in the Pacific.
The only countries I know who still haven't move on about Japan are China and Korea (I know why, I just decided not to write about it), everyone else pretty much moved on already.
And like Steak said, this game in not about reenacting World War 2, it's all about the World War 2 Ships.
What do you expect, this game isn't made to provoke other people.
Also, I think it will not be quite popular to the western countries especially the European countries because there are only limited naval engagements in the European Theater, most of the decisive naval battles were fought between the USN and the IJN in the Pacific.
The only countries I know who still haven't move on about Japan are China and Korea (I know why, I just decided not to write about it), everyone else pretty much moved on already.
And like Steak said, this game in not about reenacting World War 2, it's all about the World War 2 Ships.
If it's about the ships, at least have the decency to include naval ships from around the world, especially America. Also, at least put some trivia in the game.
One last thing, not trying to stir-up the pot, or anything, but can we please get some original American ship girls of color? America is a country that's made up of different types of people, of all races you know.
If it's targetted to the American. Since it's targetted to the Japanese, local ships first. Don't see why the Japanese should also have American as heroes in their own product.
In this first year, they've only introduced 3 Germany ships. German which is a lot more popular among WW2 military otaku than America (preceding issues such as Germany being their ally in WW2). If they're going to be introducing American ships, it won't be any time soon.
Another thing. The companies in otaku industries are not thinking much outside local market. They traditionally leave that to local partners who are interested in licensing their products. There's worries about cultural gap, and with foreign not being the main focus, they'd rather have their local partners to deal with it while they concentrate on local market (with licensing money as extra).
But the relationship is as licensor or reseller. Don't think that the foreign partner will have much to say. Probably specialized local contents and events for that specific market, but the core development will always be for Japan first. Which is actually not so different with American company who have America first approach because they don't have resources to provide supply chain or data gathering for other countries, in addition to legal stuffs.
The game already have trivias. But I'm going to take a guess that the trivias are going to be deemed "too shallow".
And for the "make a difference". Compare with this case: stakeholder asked you to develop a religious game with message that's true-to-scriptures, no going overboard. How long would the game fly with players constantly feeling they're being preached at or constantly antagonized ? They're just here to have fun, and this is not even one of those novel-like game where plot is the most important thing.
Like Touhou, a good chunk of the fans are not experiencing the story from the real game. They're enjoying great art and fun stories of derivative works made by fan artists. Outside Japan, with the regional lock and language barrier, this is even more true.
If it's targetted to the American. Since it's targetted to the Japanese, local ships first. Don't see why the Japanese should also have American as heroes in their own product.
In this first year, they've only introduced 3 Germany ships. German which is a lot more popular among WW2 military otaku than America (preceding issues such as Germany being their ally in WW2). If they're going to be introducing American ships, it won't be any time soon.
Another thing. The companies in otaku industries are not thinking much outside local market. They traditionally leave that to local partners who are interested in licensing their products. There's worries about cultural gap, and with foreign not being the main focus, they'd rather have their local partners to deal with it while they concentrate on local market (with licensing money as extra).
But the relationship is as licensor or reseller. Don't think that the foreign partner will have much to say. Probably specialized local contents and events for that specific market, but the core development will always be for Japan first. Which is actually not so different with American company who have America first approach because they don't have resources to provide supply chain or data gathering for other countries, in addition to legal stuffs.
The game already have trivias. But I'm going to take a guess that the trivias are going to be deemed "too shallow".
And for the "make a difference". Compare with this case: stakeholder asked you to develop a religious game with message that's true-to-scriptures, no going overboard. How long would the game fly with players constantly feeling they're being preached at or constantly antagonized ? They're just here to have fun, and this is not even one of those novel-like game where plot is the most important thing.
Like Touhou, a good chunk of the fans are not experiencing the story from the real game. They're enjoying great art and fun stories of derivative works made by fan artists. Outside Japan, with the regional lock and language barrier, this is even more true.
Have you seen Gaijin Goombah's video, about how Japanese devs should open up to foreign markets? I 100% agree with him. They have all these interesting games, that would recive a huge profit from foriegn markets. I've actually talked to a couple of friends about this issue, and they say that many people in Japan are actually shocked that westerners, especially Americans, even know about Nintendo, or thier games. That type of close minded thinking cannot exist anymore, especially with a country who is #1 in the world economy, and wants to stay that way. They don't even talk to us, or even find out what we, as consumers like, and instead takes a distant apporach, and desing games in what they think that we will like. Final Fantasy XIII,DmC, Resident Evil 6,Mindjack, and Shadow The Hedgehog were a good examples of this. They all think that we like guns, and ultra violence, without understanding the context behing those things, and understanding that people in the west have different tases in games. I'm sure a game like Kantai Collection would't do so well over here, but it can't hurt to try.
Last note, I was very estatic hear that Zun came to America this year, because it shows that he does have an interest in the international audience, and it might inspire him to release games over here on Steam someday. This is what i want to see more japanese devs do, because it's detrimental to the entire industry to flat-out ingnore an huge chunck of the gaming market, which is the international market. Here's a link to the video, if anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG5gkSl_IjA
If it's targetted to the American. Since it's targetted to the Japanese, local ships first. Don't see why the Japanese should also have American as heroes in their own product.
It also doesn't help that most of these ships were sunk by the Americans during the war. Considering that the official 4koma has shown the Kanmusu with vivid memories of their past (especially when it comes to the details of their first deaths), fighting along side the American would probably end up with a lot of tension and bad blood within ranks. If Kancolle ever gets a proper story, it's quite possible for this new Combined Fleet to get a number of "friendly fire" and end up fighting each other instead of the Abyssmal Fleet.
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Personally I think the fear of Kancolle eclipsing Touhou is at the moment over-exaggerated. Would Touhou, with a huge fanbase built over almost twenty years, collapse overnight just because of an upstart that just passed its first anniversary? I don't think so. IF it is to fall so very easily, even with the solid foundation it has, then that would just mean that this is all there is to Touhou and its so-called fans are nothing more than a fickle mob. I doubt this is true.
If one is to compare the two, I would say that Touhou has certain strengths that Kancolle lacks and desperately needs if it is to maintain its popularity for long. Touhou has proper stories, good music, developed characters and a more-or-less defined and consistent worldview, all which contributes to its longevity, popularity and its ability to continue growing into the future. Kancolle's chief advantage as I see it is its accessibility (to the Japanese audience at least); as a browser game, it can be played on the move from the phone, while Touhou's games are AFAIK confined to PCs. However I feel that there is a need, a crucial need I would say, to pump real substance into Kancolle: a real story, a detailed and consistent background (preferably one that stays as far as it can from retcons) as well as character depth (pun intended), at least. The Get'em'All mode can stay fresh for only so long; sooner or later, it will run out of ships and ways to distinguish one from another. The fact that Kancolle is personifying WWII ships means that, unlike Touhou, Pokemon and IdolMas, it can't introduce original Kanmusu without violating its basic premises.
Also, Kancolle really needs to work on its music. It would be good if each world has its own unique theme, just like each Touhou character has her own theme, to give each zone its own feel, to set one apart from the other. Just like the Kanmusu, the stages should be distinct from each other, so that players won't get the feeling of being stuck into an monotonous cycle where everything looks the same. Besides, it would provide fan-artists more material to work with =3
It also doesn't help that most of these ships were sunk by the Americans during the war. Considering that the official 4koma has shown the Kanmusu with vivid memories of their past (especially when it comes to the details of their first deaths), fighting along side the American would probably end up with a lot of tension and bad blood within ranks. If Kancolle ever gets a proper story, it's quite possible for this new Combined Fleet to get a number of "friendly fire" and end up fighting each other instead of the Abyssmal Fleet.
--------------------------
Personally I think the fear of Kancolle eclipsing Touhou is at the moment over-exaggerated. Would Touhou, with a huge fanbase built over almost twenty years, collapse overnight just because of an upstart that just passed its first anniversary? I don't think so. IF it is to fall so very easily, even with the solid foundation it has, then that would just mean that this is all there is to Touhou and its so-called fans are nothing more than a fickle mob. I doubt this is true.
If one is to compare the two, I would say that Touhou has certain strengths that Kancolle lacks and desperately needs if it is to maintain its popularity for long. Touhou has proper stories, good music, developed characters and a more-or-less defined and consistent worldview, all which contributes to its longevity, popularity and its ability to continue growing into the future. Kancolle's chief advantage as I see it is its accessibility (to the Japanese audience at least); as a browser game, it can be played on the move from the phone, while Touhou's games are AFAIK confined to PCs. However I feel that there is a need, a crucial need I would say, to pump real substance into Kancolle: a real story, a detailed and consistent background (preferably one that stays as far as it can from retcons) as well as character depth (pun intended), at least. The Get'em'All mode can stay fresh for only so long; sooner or later, it will run out of ships and ways to distinguish one from another. The fact that Kancolle is personifying WWII ships means that, unlike Touhou, Pokemon and IdolMas, it can't introduce original Kanmusu without violating its basic premises.
Also, Kancolle really needs to work on its music. It would be good if each world has its own unique theme, just like each Touhou character has her own theme, to give each zone its own feel, to set one apart from the other. Just like the Kanmusu, the stages should be distinct from each other, so that players won't get the feeling of being stuck into an monotonous cycle where everything looks the same. Besides, it would provide fan-artists more material to work with =3
I think that Kantai Collection suffers from an inherent flaw that prevents it from being more serious: its source of material is much darker and meaningful than it could ever hope to be.
One is a commerical freemium game made by a team of people for the sake of making money.
I cannot agree with this. One of the main draws of Kantai Collection is that the game is NOT pay-to-win. They even explicitly warn you not to splurge on real money for things like Large Ship Construction, and you shouldn't have to, either.
UnlimitedBaconWorks said:
And I think people are claiming it's greedy because it's very increasingly targeted at the otaku demographic. While there's way worse, few people like actively wondering if they're being pandered to.
It was supposed to be pandering to IJN otaku with cute girls on the side. Things just ended up going the opposite way.
Tetsamaru said:
I would say Vocaloid and maybe perhaps Fate stay night.
Type-kun said:
More like general Type-moon fandom, which still happens to be quite large despite Nasu being a king of Slowpokes.
Nah, I can't foresee either of them taking over any of those 3 franchises. They're more like the smaller states that the big 3 swallowed to give us the eventual map of the 3 kingdoms that we all know.
GigaNinjaMaster said:
I think that part of the reason for the Abyssal Girls' existence is that it would have been much harder to make dozens of unique designs to represent the entire U.S. Navy than it would have been to make a handful of generic mooks. However, after the introduction of the Germans, I'm not so sure anymore.
I don't care how popular the Abyssal Girls are; the thing that disturbs me the most about Kantai Collection is how it portrays World War II as harmless (in a way, this makes the Abyssal Girls' popularity even more disturbing). For a game that goes to such depth in the technicalities (almost every aspect of the character designs reflects the real-world ships), it's astounding how it doesn't acknowledge the gravity of the conflict at all. What about Pearl Harbor? What about the Rape of Nanking? As for the Americans, what about Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What about the keeping of Japanese soldiers' body parts as trophies? Even the campiest of World War II-related media tends to recognize at least some of these offenses; Kantai Collection reduces the greatest conflict in human history into an otaku's wet dream. Normally I wouldn't mind something like Kantai Collection so much, but when the work in question is so widespread and tensions in the East are so high, such a work concerns me. Romanticizing history's tragedies makes it easier for them to repeat.
The official word is that they are aliens. So they are just generic mooks, aliens, nothing more. In any case the creator has confirmed that he's going to add foreign ships, including American and British, as well.
I can't say much as to why all those atrocities weren't mentioned in the game (Rape of Nanking and the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't done by ships btw), but I don't agree with your last sentence; in fact I find that what KanColle is doing reduces tensions between nations instead, reducing the chances of history repeating itself.
Steak said:
I'm surprised it's still a thing. My first experience with it was the mecha anime from years ago. The girls were all psychos...
Xenoglossia is completely off when it comes to representing Idolmaster in general. If I'm not wrong, it wasn't that popular with Idolmaster fans, too.
D_The_Man said:
I do agree with this game not being 100% acceptable in the west, seeing that most parts of the world, are still suffering from the tragedies World War II. Hell, even if they decide to put U.S. Naval ships in the game, it still would be prone to stereotypes, and antagonistic tensions. This game seems to be riding the whole moe girl craze, and nothing but. If this game was smart(which i'm assuming it isn't, because again, this is nothing more than otaku drool bait), it would have showcased World War II, and all of the tragedies that occured in it, as well as become a striking history lesson for people of all nationalites. Had the developers actually did thier homework, this could have been one of the most historically accurate, and the most intelectually satisfying game on world war II. This is just like the latest Studio Ghibli film, "The Wind Rises". The movie got a lot of contreversy, for it's portayal of the construction of Japanese war ships, and apperently it didn't sit well with most western viewers, especially those who had family members, who served in World War II.
This game really doesn't offer much in actually educating people about World War II, and it sure as hell doesn't expose the revisionist bullshit, that the Japanese government has been trying to do since the 1960's. This game could have also been a bridge of peace between the Chineese, and Japanese citizens, especially the young citizens, and could have been a bridge of understanding one another. This game could have done so much more, but instead, it's just another generic moe-centric game, with little, to no value. Not to hate on the game or anything, but i found it extremly dissapointing, that this game didn't push the boundaries, and actually become a tool for peace, and understanding.
You are giving no credit whatsoever to the creators of official works and fanworks alike. Again, catering to IJN otaku means that they had to do research on the ships, to the extent that even the most trivial details are reflected in some part of the girl: her equipment, accessories, lines, etc. Check the second point of the following article:
The third point will also tell you why Kantai Collection doesn't just showcase about World War II the way you want it to.
And as others said, it's better off having no canon story. The story is best left to other official media like manga spinoffs, the upcoming anime, etc, as well as fanworks. This is also a major appeal to fans, because they can leave things up to their imaginations.
And finally, the game is popular in China. Popular enough to have its own KanColle convention. And a KanColle ripoff. The game doesn't need to do anything to become a tool of peace; let things go their natural course. Forcing things can have an opposite effect.
D_The_Man said:
If it's about the ships, at least have the decency to include naval ships from around the world, especially America. Also, at least put some trivia in the game.
It was first and foremost for IJN ships, and IJN ships only. The developers never expected it to become this popular. The decision to add foreign ships was only made after its popularity exploded.
D_The_Man said:
Have you seen Gaijin Goombah's video, about how Japanese devs should open up to foreign markets? I 100% agree with him. They have all these interesting games, that would recive a huge profit from foriegn markets. I've actually talked to a couple of friends about this issue, and they say that many people in Japan are actually shocked that westerners, especially Americans, even know about Nintendo, or thier games. That type of close minded thinking cannot exist anymore, especially with a country who is #1 in the world economy, and wants to stay that way. They don't even talk to us, or even find out what we, as consumers like, and instead takes a distant apporach, and desing games in what they think that we will like. Final Fantasy XIII,DmC, Resident Evil 6,Mindjack, and Shadow The Hedgehog were a good examples of this. They all think that we like guns, and ultra violence, without understanding the context behing those things, and understanding that people in the west have different tases in games. I'm sure a game like Kantai Collection would't do so well over here, but it can't hurt to try.
Last note, I was very estatic hear that Zun came to America this year, because it shows that he does have an interest in the international audience, and it might inspire him to release games over here on Steam someday. This is what i want to see more japanese devs do, because it's detrimental to the entire industry to flat-out ingnore an huge chunck of the gaming market, which is the international market. Here's a link to the video, if anyone is interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG5gkSl_IjA
So it's just following what other Japanese franchises do. Focus on the local market before expanding. In fact, it was originally supposed to cater only to the local market.
And before you can expand to other markets, you have to consider three things.
First, you have to intend to become big first, otherwise it's just a waste of time, effort and money. Kantai Collection only intended to have 20k players, and hardly any secondaries. When something you don't intend to become big ends up being so, you need time to think your next step, because all your future plans just got screwed up.
Next, you have to be able to cater to local demand before you can talk about catering to worldwide demand. Those who want to play the game at all have to go through a lottery system to get slots, because the servers won't be able to accept a load beyond a certain amount. They have been adding new servers and expanding existing ones, but all the slots still end up being taken up every single day. If you can't even satisfy local demand, don't talk about trying to satisfy demand in other markets.
Finally, even if Kadokawa is willing to expand, DMM isn't. DMM is a site hosting mainly R-18 games with KanColle being one of the few exceptions. It wouldn't sit well with moral guardians in other countries, that's for sure. This game was also a collaboration between these two companies for DMM to experiment hosting non-R-18 games, and I doubt that'd change regardless of its popularity.
Estavali said:
If one is to compare the two, I would say that Touhou has certain strengths that Kancolle lacks and desperately needs if it is to maintain its popularity for long. Touhou has proper stories, good music, developed characters and a more-or-less defined and consistent worldview, all which contributes to its longevity, popularity and its ability to continue growing into the future. Kancolle's chief advantage as I see it is its accessibility (to the Japanese audience at least); as a browser game, it can be played on the move from the phone, while Touhou's games are AFAIK confined to PCs. However I feel that there is a need, a crucial need I would say, to pump real substance into Kancolle: a real story, a detailed and consistent background (preferably one that stays as far as it can from retcons) as well as character depth (pun intended), at least. The Get'em'All mode can stay fresh for only so long; sooner or later, it will run out of ships and ways to distinguish one from another. The fact that Kancolle is personifying WWII ships means that, unlike Touhou, Pokemon and IdolMas, it can't introduce original Kanmusu without violating its basic premises.
Also, Kancolle really needs to work on its music. It would be good if each world has its own unique theme, just like each Touhou character has her own theme, to give each zone its own feel, to set one apart from the other. Just like the Kanmusu, the stages should be distinct from each other, so that players won't get the feeling of being stuck into an monotonous cycle where everything looks the same. Besides, it would provide fan-artists more material to work with =3
You're mistaken as to where KanColle's niche is. The lack of a story or background is part of what's mainly driving the franchise's popularity now, allowing the story to be left up to the interpretations of the fans. Some details have been confirmed by the developers, like that only the equipment is scrapped or modernised and the girls just back to civilian lives afterwards. However, it still hasn't stopped people from viewing things like Isuzu farming as otherwise.
Regarding the playing on phones, the developers have explicitly discouraged players from doing so, asking them to stick to PCs instead. And if they run out of World War II ships (which is going to take quite some time), simple. Just start using ships whose constructions were halted for any reason. Or use ships from a different era, like World War I. Even the modern era is fine.
You're right about the character depth, though. I can't say for sure about the direction they're taking with regards to this, but it seems like the developers are just taking from general fanon consensus for that. As for the music, I don't know about you, but personally I wish that they can allow us to choose the BGM we want instead.
Lack of background and story would probably be its downfall eventually, fanwork can only do a bit with a blank slate and Kantai lack of background doesn't seem to give anywhere to build up its story from. That's probably going to change with the airing of the anime, which probably is just going to be moe or some other cute thing. I can see that in the future of Kantai becoming something similar to ldolmaster. Kantai really need to give something to build up a decent story from, which is something it sadly doesn't have right now.
So, how long do you think Kantai Collection will last?
Well in the last time, I see various friends leave kancolle, because its gameplay is random. Construction from girls, sorties, battle, etc. I think that if not they do something, kancolle you lose fame
MEDIUM DAMAGEDon't be lookin' like a goddamn slut!!!Oh!Oh!