To be fair Asgore isn't a bad guy, quite the opposite.
Just a guy faced with a difficult decision (a decision that Toriel herself just walked away from dealing with), that just wanted to make his people happy. Even a guy as nice as Papyrus couldn't handle that pressure well.
To be fair Asgore isn't a bad guy, quite the opposite.
Just a guy faced with a difficult decision (a decision that Toriel herself just walked away from dealing with), that just wanted to make his people happy. Even a guy as nice as Papyrus couldn't handle that pressure well.
Fans really paint Asgore in a bad light.
More like fans take too many things at face value.
I liked the game, but there were so many plot holes that its hard to take anything in the game seriously, especially if you played both routes.
like why asgore didn't take one soul of human, go to the other side and take 6 more? Then return and free everyone
he made his declaration to kill mankind and free the monsters out of grief over the loss of his son, and immediately regretted it. However, the underground spirit's were raised by the promise of hope and revenge so he couldn't back out of it.
The big thing is his obvious kindhearted love for all, but his inability to dash everyone's spirits. Because it was a selfish and out of character act that started it, he felt obligated, as king, to lead the underground's wishes. He couldn't bring himself to literally kill one human, so he instead waited and hoped no one would come so he wouldn't have to kill anyone.
Toriel, though a pacifist and against the idea of genocide, was deeply disgusted by his ambivalence. He didn't have the strength to either commit to the idea or dispel it, so he kept things in limbo. In a way, she ran from the problem because she isolated herself, and as queen and likely the person closest to Asgore, she had the ability to change things. Although her mentality seems to be that regardless of what she would do, she couldn't just sweep in and do whats best because it has to be up to the person to decide for themselves. This comes up in the beginning of the game since she can't bring herself to seal the Ruins, and thus avoid the issue entirely.
Asgore also is completely unwilling to kill Frisk, if you go through (at least on a pacifist run), he takes every single chance he can (and gives you some extra ones) to let you just walk away and not die. Presumably, he would either let your soul fade into the ether or wait until old age does its thing. If you fight him, you can try to talk with him where his guilt weakens his resolve to kill you and you will be lowered down to one health (I think he does less damage the less health you have remaining, too boot) before he will kill you.
I guess it is some sort of metacommentary on how game world's can be incredibly static and giving a pretty compelling reason for the main obstacle to not just sweep in and kill you.
I don't know if his problem is cowardice as much as a case of him wanting to do the right thing and being trapped by his own conscious. I think the consequence of his internal conflict was cowardice, but I think he could have been a coward who lulled you with a false story and then killed you in order to keep the underground together.
like why asgore didn't take one soul of human, go to the other side and take 6 more? Then return and free everyone
How about answering where/how they got 6 other human souls in the first place? A level 1 Frisk could kill Asgore if he wanted to, so Asgore either got REALLY cold feet when Frisk came around or theres a MASSIVE story behind those six human souls we aren't told.
Saladofstones said:
Again, thats only if you take things at face value. If you get/read the neutral endings, you get a general idea of the state of politics among the monsters... and its not good. Ignoring extreme outliers like the dog ending, the underground pretty much goes to hell without Asgore's leadership.
As much as you guys call him a "coward", Asgore is pretty much holding the underground together from outright civil war. (Which, ironically, DOES happen in one ending with Toriel being outright exiled.)
I didn't call him a coward, only that his cowardice regarding the issue with the humans is pretty understandable. Also, Asgore did have some pretty cold feet. Like I said, mechanically, he will bring you down to one health before killing you.
also, sorry if I missed out on the what the other endings described. All I got was the Toriel ending, before I got the pacifist ending, in which it seems like people were pretty together but struggling to maintain hope given they were sealed forever.
I didn't call him a coward, only that his cowardice regarding the issue with the humans is pretty understandable. Also, Asgore did have some pretty cold feet. Like I said, mechanically, he will bring you down to one health before killing you.
also, sorry if I missed out on the what the other endings described. All I got was the Toriel ending, before I got the pacifist ending, in which it seems like people were pretty together but struggling to maintain hope given they were sealed forever.
Sure, mechanically he'll bring you down to one health first, but that still doesn't explain anything.
1. We have absolutely no idea where the other six souls come from. 1b. We have no idea how Asgore managed to kill six humans to get their souls. 2. We have no idea how much he was holding things together/how much the masses looked up to/relied on him.
The Toriel ending is a useless ending. Other than the fact that it reveals that Toriel actually still has/had feelings for Asgore, its just a setup for the Pacifist ending. (Which is fine, but thats like saying getting a different Game Over screen for dying at the Final Boss is a 'secret ending')
Well given that there are about six coffins in the room, its fair to say that he killed them. Also, I thought he was looked up to well enough. The final hallway has everyone talking about how Asgore is about to give the promised land and there are a lot of NPCs who look up to Asgore and wait for him to make things right.
Undyne and Papyrus both gush about him and say how hes a nice guy, so I think its fair to say that he is well liked.
Well given that there are about six coffins in the room, its fair to say that he killed them. Also, I thought he was looked up to well enough. The final hallway has everyone talking about how Asgore is about to give the promised land and there are a lot of NPCs who look up to Asgore and wait for him to make things right.
Undyne and Papyrus both gush about him and say how hes a nice guy, so I think its fair to say that he is well liked.
That doesn't explain anything. Its outright stated in the game that it would take countless monsters to kill a single human and you're saying that Asgore killed SIX of them? You need to put up some evidence to back your argument.
And there are obviously those who disagree with Asgore. (See: Undyne's death sparking a rebellion)
And yet things (usually) go to hell without him. Obviously, they relied on him more than is suggested.
Well, given that asgore has six human souls inside of containers matching the colors that are on the six coffins found just outside the barrier, which is located just beyond his throne room, I think there is fair evidence that Asgore had some degree of involvement in their deaths.
Also you are underestimating monsters here. They were so dangerous, originally, that mankind came together to wipe them from existence. Sans makes it clear he has had the ability to kill you where you stand since the beginning. Given that just about every monster you encounter can accidentally or intentionally kill you, I'd say that its fair to say that yeah, monsters have a fair chance of being able to kill a human child who wanders in, especially if they don't have the ability to SAVE.
While there are people who disagree with Asgore, it seems like the overall sentiment is still in favor of him, just that people (monsters) are getting worn down by living underground.
I am sure, as well, that Asgore could have just out and out killed you if he was really DETERMINED to. His first action is to destroy the mercy option, which is pretty powerful in of itself, and he has a pretty large pool of abilities he could use to murderlize kids.
I don't think its a plot hole that Asgore has been sucessfully killing kid since nothing has been said that he doesn't have the strength to do so, since he could have even just gone through the barrier and killed the required amount of kids in one go.
This is conjecture, but I'd imagine he could call upon Sans, or other unseen monsters, to just kill the kids as they come in. Humans may be tough to kill, but looking at how powerful sans is on the genocide run, he'd probably be able to outright kill a normal human (since frisk/chara is implied to not even be human at that stage)
Unless there is some bit of lore I'm missing, Asgore being able to kill kids over a period of time, or being able to do it at once, isn't a plot hole.
We're not even certain the other six humans were kids. That's just a piece of fanon that went full-blown memetic. A boxing glove? A real gun, one that is likely empty because all the rounds were spent? A frying pan? Not items I'd associate with kids.
At least some of the other humans were very likely adults. Adult humans have a higher potential for determination than children, so they would be considered massive threats and probably get waylaid by Undyne, a pre-promise Sans, possibly Alphys and Mettaton, or even Flowey if he was in a charitable mood towards his father (who he seems to keep sporadic contact with and knows that he's Asriel). It's also theorized that the gear of the other humans is found where it's found because the previous owners died around those locations. Asgore may have never had to kill any of those humans himself, and then Frisk is waved through to his throne room? He already didn't like the whole scheme, and if the above is true, then frankly, his extreme reluctance to personally lay a hand on a human, let alone a child makes a lot more sense.
I assumed it was kids largely because the coffins seen by the barrier are childsize, regardless of whether or not Asgore personally did them in.
It makes sense that the other kids died in different places in the underground, and I think one of the articles of clothing was said to be covered in ash.
This is a pretty cool discussion, thanks to those involved.
I'm pretty sure the other humans were children, given that there were children's shoes of various sizes in Toriel's room. They may be Chara's and Asriel's, but it wouldn't make sense for Toriel to bring them with her.
In addition, it's implied that the different children had died in different parts of the Underground, namely wherever you find their stuff. That would mean that Frisk is the first human he meets personally, explaining his hesitance with fighting you.
For the whole weapon thing, I do agree that a child having a gun - even an antique one - is pretty weird. That said, there are places in the world where children are allowed to own guns, and it's possible that the child just grabbed the gun and the cowboy hat to do some adventuring up on the mountain. Of course, that says a lot of that particular child's parents but that's a different matter. All the other items do make sense to me, though.
One thing that does bother me is what makes the random encounter monsters attack you since, as MMaestro said, most of the monsters don't actually recognize you as human. I think that it's entirely possible that many years pass by between the different humans arriving in the Underground, which would explain why many don't recognize you as human. And the ones that do, or at least acknowledge it in some way, are the monsters that are specifically on the lookout for humans. That still leaves the question of why random monsters decide to attack you, besides the obvious RPG elements of the game.
That said, most of the stuff relating to the plot does make sense to me. The children dying in various places can be explained as them getting killed by said random monsters, all while travelling the same path Frisk does to return to the surface. As for the whole SAVE thing, I'm pretty sure only Frisk and Flowey are the ones capable of it, since if the other humans could they'd have survived.
Except that doesn't offer the slightest explanation as to how the items end up at the dump. Your explanation makes as much as logical sense as "the gun fell out of an airplane, into the underground, where Napstablook found and threw out at the dump where it was found by Catty and Bratty".
Theres no doubt that many years pass by, but theres never a reason to explain why some monsters don't recognize you as a human while others do. Papyrus has to ask Sans for confirmation and the Royal Guards in Hotland pretty much wave you off when you talk to them.
That infers wayyyyyy too much about the other humans/children. For all you know, the other humans simply died when they fell into the underground, SAVE powers be damned.
Toriel does mention that she's seen the other humans pass through her home in the ruins though, which obviously indicates that they did actually survive to go through the underground. She clearly says that she's seen them come, leave the ruins, and then die to the other monsters in the underground.
It'd make sense for the gun and cowboy hat to be in the dump if you were to consider that that particular human traveled at least as far as Waterfall and was killed there by some monster, and their items were eventually found there by the dump by Catty and Bratty.
Blue_Stuff said: Toriel does mention that she's seen the other humans pass through her home in the ruins though, which obviously indicates that they did actually survive to go through the underground. She clearly says that she's seen them come, leave the ruins, and then die to the other monsters in the underground.It'd make sense for the gun and cowboy hat to be in the dump if you were to consider that that particular human traveled at least as far as Waterfall and was killed there by some monster, and their items were eventually found there by the dump by Catty and Bratty.[/quote]That ignores the fact that humans are far more powerful than monsters and the fact that most monsters are unable to identify a human on sight. Unless you want to try arguing that the six humans were all Pure Pacifist stealth-masters (who shed their equipment along the way) whose only interaction with monsters was with Asgore and Toriel, its pure fan fiction.That infers wayyyyyyy too much about the other humans. By your logic, a human made it to Hotland before being killed by some monster (see: the Burnt Pan).
The monsters in the ruins don't recognize you as a human. If Sans was killing humans before they made it into more populated areas, that would explain why none of them recognize you as human. This doesn't explain how their equipment got scattered throughout the underground, though.
To be frank, I don't see how any of this affects the plot.
like why asgore didn't take one soul of human, go to the other side and take 6 more? Then return and free everyone
This plan may seem better, but it's flawed as well.
We know that a whole army of monsters was swept away by the humans. How would a weakened monster kingdom stand a chance against humanity ? No, waiting was wiser. The humans are filled with hatred toward monsters and would destroy them any chance they have. By staying hidden for such a long time, there was the possibility of the humans forgetting about the monsters, and getting a new, fresh start. Not only that, but the very idea of getting the souls of outsiders is bad in itself. As I said before, the humans' hatred toward monsters is immense; and a single human soul can almost get a pacifist monster to murder. The risks are that the souls' hatred for monsterkind overrides Asgore's will, and gets him to destroy his people. Children have not yet developped such an hatred, so it is less dangerous to use their souls. And let's just say it is very unlikely for him to be able to kill 6 children without being noticed. So his plan was perhaps the best option.