when everybody has a trade surplus with you, and you get in a tariff war you always have the high ground
Everyone lose in a trade war. But starting it by imposing tariffs on the raw materials you import, to be transformed by your own industry in finished products, is not a particularly bright way to fight it. Then, to fight it by forcing your two main partners and competitors to strenghten their relations while weakening the ones they have with you, brings idiocy to a completely new level.
BTW...
Fadadio said:
Iowa: that's fine china will tarrif your products 3 times more than us
China: and you must give over your intelectual property to enter this market
Everyone:oh shit....
It's a very strange "lesson" coming from Iowa, since EU is ALREADY China's biggest trading partner. In 2017 EU's exports to China accounted for $224 billions (+140% since 2009), vs. $130 billions for US (+86% since 2009). Maybe Iowa has something to learn instead.
oh boy are you a parody because you just self owned yourself on a massive scale there.
what benefits China is when the said country buys chinese products(exports not imports)
of which the United States accounts for 19% of all chinese trade(431 billion for 2017) compared to the 374 billion for the whole of the EU
The United States is Chinas biggest buyer and the trading partner china cant afford to lose
both the USA and Europe have massive trade deficits with China of which the USA is slapping.
It's quite easy actually. Maybe even you can understand it. EU is actually the biggest exporter in China. Not only, it's exports are growing at a faster pace than those of US, and at a faster pace than EU's imports from China. US is the second exporter in China, and the bigger importer from China. US decides to further lose market shares on the European and Chinese markets, by imposing tariffs on raw materials (and so making it's own finished products more expensive), and being counter tariffed in exchange. As a result, since US products will be more expensive on the world's market, they will be replaced, not thanks to new trade agreements, but to simple cost considerations. So, EU and China will strenghten their trade relations, and US will have it's own weakened.
Fadadio said:
Free Trade agreements take years to make and China and Europe have been at eachothers throats when it comes to trade(especially with Cheap Chinese steel thats subsidized)
to think that they would throw away current disputes is laughable on your part
You seems to live in a world where US trades with China, and EU doesn't (see Iowa's improbable "lesson"), so EU doesn't know how to do it, and needs some new fantastic trade agreement to begin do it. Sorry, but you live in a fantasy world. EU and China trade pretty well already and, since US products are going to be more expensive both on the European and Chinese markets, they are going to trade more between each-other, while US are going to lose market shares both on the European and Chinese markets. New trade agreements between China and EU can be a FURTHER evolution (and a further backfire for US), but are not needed.
Fadadio said: The United States holds the cards and that picture perfectly captures it with everybody gathering around Trump(instead of ignoring him and slapping butts with china as you would imply)
Clowns tend to gather attention. As already said, everyone loses trade wars. Only because US is going to damage itself more than the others, that's not a good reason to not try to avoid it from the start.
Also, before things get any more intense, it might be worth reminding people of the commenting guide and that it's fine to debate and disagree, but becoming personally nasty can get you negative feedback or even moderation.
Now as a moderator, I ask that everyone remains respectful and not take shots at each other. This is a comment thread for a website dedicated to Aztec Basalt Sculptures, not the parking lot.
and my point that you lack any understanding is proven yet again
The money that would have been sent to china for cheap chinese steel instead goes to american companies who produce steel and thus support american jobs and good paying jobs at that, or at worse instead of buying from china they buy from various other countries that we have agreements with that we are not in a trade war with.
And for "cheap European steel and alluminium" that's made with stricter environmental legislation than US's? That's simply a public subsidy paid with US taxpayers' money (since they will pay more the steel and the finished products) to inefficient US manufacturers, that will make them even more inefficient and so less competitive on the international market. Maybe US consumers will be forced to "buy American" (to buy less, since goods are going to be more expensive), but none other will, so US is going to further lose market shares, and so significance, on the international market. That's not "holding the cards" but "accelerating the decline".
Fadadio said:
You cant just force companies in the EU to make up for the lack of american dollars pouring into china if it is bad for them where they could in fact buy cheaper from other countries depending on the material to be bought.
EU companies dont think out loud "hmmm china is losing billions in US dollars, let buy more than what we need"
There is no need for that infact. AT THE ACTUAL CONDITIONS EU and China will trade more between themselves not thanks to new fantastic trade deals, or because they think they have to aid the other but simply thanks to the fact that US products will be more expensive for both of them AT THE ACTUAL CONDITIONS, and so AT THE ACTUAL CONDITIONS they will be replaced.
As already said, trade wars are bad for all, but when your goal is (like US's is) not to expand your export, but to reduce your import by making goods more expensive for your citizens, and so your citizens pooorer, at the cost to further reduce your export too, you already lost first to start to fight.
Fadadio said:
now if only you had the ability to comprehend that the american stock market...
The time horizon of the stock market is next month, if not next week, and "confidence" is not "sales". Confidence is always high before starting to fall.
The actual increase in cost will be minimal since its only accounting for the raw steel cost
If the raw steel cost is insignificant, then Trump's tariffs are. The effects on prices will be proportional to the effects on trade.
Fadadio said: and again the overall end goal of these tariffs on steel is to get Europe and China to lower barriers so once this is all said and done European or chinese steel will have those tariffs walked back
EU has no barriers on US steel and aluminium. Infact US barriers had been imposed under the grotesque justification of "national security" concerns. US imports steel and aluminium from EU (produced by well paid workers and with strictier environmental regulations than US's) simply because US steelmakers are not competitive, and to be protected by tariffs is not going to make them any more competitive.
Fadadio said:
They already tariff and tax our products at stupid rates to protect domestic industry, hence why we have huge deficits with them. them adding tariffs will be a drop in the bucket since we are already losing on trade,
As already said, EU is actually the biggest exporter in China. Not only, it's exports are growing at a faster pace than those of US, and at a faster pace than EU's imports from China. And it's not that China does not have barriers on European products. The reaction to be losing on trade should be try to win on trade, not retire from the game and leave the others to play it. US decided to retire from the game.
Fadadio said:
fact of the matter is GDP is soaring, wages are rising,
That accounts for the past, under the old trade rules.
Fadadio said:
Facts don't care about your feelings or assumptions
Probably the first time a Kancolle illustration started a political debate rather than a WW2 trivia debate. Not sure how I feel about this, I tend to stay away from politics (For the reason that is going on this comment section right now).
Edit: Yup, might as well start cooking meself some popcorn 'ere...
If the steel is going to cost $1.00 more for ton, that's a $1.00 tax paid by US consumers, if the steel is going to cost $2.00 more, that's a $2.00 tax paid by US consumers. If the effect on prices will not be significant, because US will shift to the second cheaper producer, then the effects on US trade unbalance will be negligible too. "investment" would shift to American Steel only on the basis of US purchasers being forced to buy it at a higher price. This kind of investment is not going to reduce the lack of competitiveness of US producers on the international market.
Fadadio said: adding up overall tariffs is silly on your part when these tariffs are aimed at specific products
To NOT talk about overall tariffs is silly, but very useful to nationalist propaganda, since US wants to cry foul (when it's already applying very high tariffs on many foreign products) and persuade who is silly enough to believe it, that evil strangers are playing dirty, but superhero Trump will protect the country and defeat them.
The tariff every country applies to third countries imports differs for kind of goods, but, according to the World Bank, EU tariff on imports average at 1.6%, that's exactly the same than US. China average at 3.54%, that's higher, but still comparatively low. Any claim that US is losing market shares because it's heavy tariffed by evil strangers is laughable. ESPECIALLY when the average 0.85% tariff Canada applies is taken into account.
Since the tariffs every country applies to the imports from third countries differ for kind of goods (one applies an higher tariff on a certain product, the other on another product),for two countries to not apply the custom external tariff on their respective exports, a comprehensive trade agreement has to be negotiated, in EU-US case it would have been the TTIP, that Trump liked so much. The TTIP would have reduced the tariffs on vehicles to 0%, among many other things.
Trump is NOT open to dropping all tariffs on both sides, since it requires to discuss the TTIP, that he didn't want to discuss until now and, even in the case Trump will want to reopen the talkings on it, EU is not interested to discuss it while being threatened.
Fadadio said: oh boy everyone did you hear?
Europe is making crawling gains while still maintaining a substantial trade deficit with China
Yeah. Playing under the same rules, EU is making gains, and US is making losses. That's the sad truth. EU wants to keep on making gains, that means reducing (as it's already doing) the trade unbalance with China while keeping on importing and exporting MORE, so expanding its market share. US wants to reduce the trade unbalance by importing and exporting LESS, so reducing its market share. That's retiring from the game.
Fadadio said:
The import export trade off will be minimal...
Sorry, but that's only wishful thinking. Other than part of the abovementioned mithology.
Fadadio said:
Playing nice has not helped...
Read "playing under the same rules of the others".
Fadadio said:
I posted...
Stock exchange prices. I know it, and already told you that the time horizon of the stock market is next month, if not next week. NONE is going to sell titles now because he foresees them falling next year. He can do it overnight.