Posted under Tags
Do fanfiction characters really need their own tags? More specifically for the instance of their creator being the only one who uses them?
I ask since I found this tag matsuda_chiyohiko. With the exception of one post, tonda + admiral_(kantai_collection) covers this character already. I don't think this should be allowed otherwise we're opening the floodgates on every artist's version of the admiral getting their own tag when the artist's tag is sufficient enough.
If that version of the admiral is supposed to be distinguished from the standard admiral I disagree and that's the case here.
If it was like 5 images in the tag maybe but it's 400 so it clearly has it's place.
Log said:
If it was like 5 images in the tag maybe but it's 400 so it clearly has it's place.
Yes, it has 400 posts, but it's all by the same artist that made them. No one else uses that character. Should every artist get their own unique character tags for their versions of every character just because they draw them a lot?
That is the important part. I could understand them getting a tag if many different artists drew them like sendai_hakurei_no_miko, but matsuda_chiyohiko only has 400 posts because the same artist drew them 400 times.
For the record, not all of the posts under Matsuda_Chiyohiko are by the same artist. At minimum 2 of them are not by Tonda (Matsuda_Chiyohiko -Tonda), but I think that number is at least a bit larger because the fact that some of these admirals don't have their own tags has resulted in things like tagging the artist who is the originator of the character, when that artist did not do the drawing (things like post #1774443 and post #1774442).
I've also seen it in original works where there are multiple original characters, most of whom don't appear in every page of a given work. (USUALLY, this means it's an entirely original work, rather than just a fanfic, although there are some exceptions.)
I.E. Trouble Spirit has numerous characters, and if you want to search only for panels where Tiko is speaking with Priss, you'd be hard-pressed to find it just looking through the pool. Likewise, Karin-dou has well over a dozen characters, and given how long a character can go without reappearing, having a wiki page for the characters to be a refresher isn't a bad thing.
Touhou Boys and Girls was an extended "if they mated" series that got their own character tags for similar reasons, in spite of being a fan work. Xialing (Meiling and Sakuya's child) appeared all the time, but Iris (Alice and Reisen's child) appeared only rarely.
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On the topic of Matsuda Chiyohiko, I've seen multiple crossover images made by other artists. Kei-Suwabe in particular seems to have his abyssal admiral drawn by other artists, while drawing Matsuda in his occasionally. I.E. post #1752859
Here's some other Chiyohikos by other artists, just looking around randomly:
Updated
Hoobajoob said:
Yes, it has 400 posts, but it's all by the same artist that made them. No one else uses that character. Should every artist get their own unique character tags for their versions of every character just because they draw them a lot?
Are you saying that a character should not be tagged by name simply because it is only drawn by it's creator? I.E are you suggesting that original characters done by pixiv artists should not be tagged by their names?
How about the case when other artist only draw that character as part of a group (e.g: "the other admirals") instead of giving a proper role ? In this case they can be replaced by anyone without affecting the plot, but the artist just choose to draw their friends or characters already familiar with the readers.
Will this be enough to be used in asking a character tag for said original character ?
Setsunator said:
I.E are you suggesting that original characters done by pixiv artists should not be tagged by their names?
Actually, we already got a list of Original Characters that are leaning to original tag rather than to a certain copyright. So the floodgate for OCs is already been opened but Fanfic OCs isn't much covered (but there a certain section here that are dedicated to "Unofficial Characters" pretty much leaning to a fanfic OC somehow).
But like NWF had said, it's better to have a tag for a Fanfic OC rather than to tag the originator artist whenever the OC has being borrowed since it somehow defies the main purpose of the artist tags, unless there is a collaboration happening.
Plus tonda has two admirals, at least we need something that could distinguished one from the other.
wererat42 in post #1811686 raises another interesting precedent - Tatebayashi Sakurako and Narumi Tsuyu, both of which are OC admirals that got tags of their own even before they started popping up in crossovers. The question is, should that have been done? If so, why? If not, why not?
When I started typing this post, I was leaning toward no, but the more I think about it, the more I think yes. Specifically, when the artist gives their OC admiral a name, that's a sign that the author has actually started thinking about them as having a unique identity as a character. As an example, the genesis of the tatebayashi_sakurako tag was when Niwatazumi drew a profile/biography page for her.
Kei-Suwabe in particular seems to have his abyssal admiral drawn by other artists
Yeah, it's about as frequent as tonda's - take a look at abyssal_admiral_(kantai_collection) -kei-suwabe borrowed_character - I think he should get his own tag already. Though, that might be the fundamental problem with borrowed_character tag - how am I supposed to search for borrowed characters of specific artists if neither the artist nor the character itself are specified as a tag? In this particular case, abyssal_admiral_(kantai_collection) borrowed_character is only kei-suwabe's admiral, but there are other abyssal admirals. The situation would be much worse for regular admirals in the future (post #1646211, and the number's still growing). Maybe there should be some tag for borrowed character by artist, something along the lines of _(cosplay) and _(style) tags?
If there's an original character that shows up repeatedly, sure, of course it can get a tag. Just make sure the wiki clearly states it's an original character.
If an artist makes a different version of a character then that warrants them getting their own unique tag? So noai_noishi's unique 5cm Remilia should get her own tag? Imizu_(nitro_unknown)'s unique fox eared Reisen should get her own tag? Should mizuki_hitoshi's artist insert version of Kogasa and Sanae get their own tags? No, of course not. That would be pretentious and redundant.
That's exactly what giving tags to all these different OC versions of the kantai admiral amounts to.
Setsunator said:
Are you saying that a character should not be tagged by name simply because it is only drawn by it's creator? I.E are you suggesting that original characters done by pixiv artists should not be tagged by their names?
I'm not talking about 100% original character with their own series. I'm talking about fanfiction OCs that are based on existing characters. I'm suggesting it's pretentious to give these kinds of OCs the same regard as the legitimate characters from popular series they're based on. Letting anyone get their own character tags for any fanfiction character they make is only a few steps away from turning danbooru into tumblr.
The artist tag and base character tag are enough. Making a "combo tag" of those two is redundant and a thinly veiled bias driven tribute to a favorite artist or story. I don't like raising a stink about this, but the point of the tag system is for clerical organization and this crosses that line into a zone of subjective bias that the pools were meant to satisfy.
Hoobajoob said:
The artist tag and base character tag are enough. Making a "combo tag" of those two is redundant and a thinly veiled bias driven tribute to a favorite artist or story. I don't like raising a stink about this, but the point of the tag system is for clerical organization and this crosses that line into a zone of subjective bias that the pools were meant to satisfy.
Was already stated this was untrue, and that artist tag and base character tag was not enough.
As for the rest of your argument, I disagree and think you're comparing apples to oranges. Those touhou characters already have a predefined appearance and shape to go by, and those variants by artists are not at all far from that base appearance. Things like the Admiral only define a position (and is that position even unique in their world?), they do not at all define a specific appearance, which is what these various Admiral tags would do. Just because there is a vague base to go by, doesn't mean the character can't be original.
I also like the idea that these OC Admirals should have their own character tag but we just have to limit those so that we won't be flooded by OC Admiral tags whenever a new "unique" admiral has been introduced here or in Pixiv.
So I proposed these conditions to measure if the OC Admiral is legit for a character tag:
Condition 1: If the OC Admiral has his/her own official name given by the originator, by this way, it would be easy to make a tag for the admiral.
Condition 2: The character tag must not trigger a spoiler.
Condition 3: If the OC Admiral has his/her own well written character profile (post #1701085).
Condition 4: If the OC Admiral has more than 10 solo pictures or if the admiral (a combination of the admiral + artist_name tags) already has a post count of more than 50 posts.
Condition 5: If the OC Admiral has been borrowed for more than two to three times (this is already stated).
If Condition 1 and Condition 2 plus 2 more conditions had been met, then the OC Admiral is legit to have his/her own character tag.
